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    #16
    Originally posted by pazi88 View Post
    So you two are getting bigger torque number per litre by slapping few parts to the engine with tune. Than the best commercial engines that car companies with dozens of engineers and lot of money has come up during the years of engine development. I mean the hp numbers are you have are acheivable with m5x based engines. But max torque per litre in NA engine is limited by laws of nature...

    As stock m5x based engines make 75ft-lbs per litre. And the best tuned ones 82-83 ft-lbs from crank.

    Don't know what to tell you. The numbers are the numbers. I have dyno'd hundreds of cars both with engines built here at my shop, as well as tuning for others. You are welcome to check out my m20 database I have been sharing...


    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=421924


    Sure, factory engines are limited, but when you start adding aftermarket parts, those numbers no longer apply. When you significantly raise compression, you are adding torque - if you increase stroke, you add torque, if you add air flow, you add torque. One can't say an engine with 10:1 compression will follow your logic on btq per liter when you bump that compression up another 20-40% to 12 or 14:1 - thermal efficiency increases along with it.


    There are several ways to make power: increase the rpm capability, increase the displacement, increase the flow etc.



    Here's another members' dyno thread where he shows good gains, it's not just the two engines posted in this thread...


    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=327183
    john@m20guru.com
    Links:
    Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

    Comment


      #17
      To get back on topic... Kassel Performance is a good option. He can send you a chip and he does dyno work but you may be a bit too far to get to the dyno.
      Originally posted by Melon
      Engine work takes patience and finesse.

      Suspension work takes anger, a big fucking hammer, and a torch.

      Comment


        #18
        How do I know if I need a chip for my car?

        Right now I have the "hot intake", ebay longtube headers with no cats that go to a muffler.

        Also has the pink top injectors. Other than that it is stock.

        Will the car run "rough" without a tune or just not have enough power?
        1990 325is
        m52b28
        3.73lsd
        g260 (1987 325is 5spd tranny)

        Comment


          #19
          3.0 build, M52 Z3 aluminum block, Vanos head
          11.5:1 84.5mm Imagineering pistons (Paul Burke)
          Metric Mechanic rally cams
          Molnar rods
          Ported head
          1mm over valves
          3.5" intake
          540i MAF
          Riot Racing 68mm TB
          24lb injectors
          RK Tunes remote tune
          Lightweight S52 crank
          UUC flywheel/M5 clutch
          Raceland shorty headers
          Custom 3" exhaust
          Several oiling mods

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
            Don't know what to tell you. The numbers are the numbers. I have dyno'd hundreds of cars both with engines built here at my shop, as well as tuning for others. You are welcome to check out my m20 database I have been sharing...


            https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=421924


            Sure, factory engines are limited, but when you start adding aftermarket parts, those numbers no longer apply. When you significantly raise compression, you are adding torque - if you increase stroke, you add torque, if you add air flow, you add torque. One can't say an engine with 10:1 compression will follow your logic on btq per liter when you bump that compression up another 20-40% to 12 or 14:1 - thermal efficiency increases along with it.


            There are several ways to make power: increase the rpm capability, increase the displacement, increase the flow etc.



            Here's another members' dyno thread where he shows good gains, it's not just the two engines posted in this thread...


            https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=327183


            BRO its impossible to add moar power by bolt ons and ecu mapping........................................... ......................................


            even with the F20c its possible to gain 20rwhp on its 120hp/liter by using a modern computer, mapping and bolting on an exhaust and cat delete pipe.

            i guess its impossible
            OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

            Z4 non powered steering rack fits e30



            Euro e46 2005/6 320d 6mt gearbox into E30 with M20 hardy and beck 1985 327s engine

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Wanganstyle View Post
              BRO its impossible to add moar power by bolt ons and ecu mapping........................................... ......................................


              even with the F20c its possible to gain 20rwhp on its 120hp/liter by using a modern computer, mapping and bolting on an exhaust and cat delete pipe.

              i guess its impossible
              You can make quite much more HP by head work, cams etc. that allow the engine breathe higher on RPM range. Pretty much until the piston speed comes too high that the engine will fall apart or vibrate itself to pieces. BUT you can't make much more torque in NA engine, because there is just no way to put more air and fuel into the cylinder than it's displacement is. That's why NA engines can achieve only certain torque per liter because it's defined by laws of nature. To make more torque you need to compress the intake air... Of course you can make engine more efficient by rising the compression ratio etc. but again there is limit on how big MEP you can achieve on pump gas because of knock sensitivity.

              But I heard from reputable source that Dynojet dynos give way too optimistic hp/torque readings because of error in the code or something like that. So those WHP numbers are pretty much Crank HP numbers in reality. And in that case those previous numbers are plausible.

              Comment


                #22
                yeah, that's not true at all. Just an internet myth. As long as you use the SAE correction (which the chart above does), the numbers are pretty reliable, especially if you want to compare them to other dynojet runs. I've been on a dynojet with a bunch of different cars that were stock, and all put down WHP that was close to what you'd expect (given a 10-15% drivetrain loss). For example, my 330i put down ~225whp stock, it's rated at 255bhp. Seems pretty damn close to me.
                Build thread

                Bimmerlabs

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by pazi88 View Post
                  You can make quite much more HP by head work, cams etc. that allow the engine breathe higher on RPM range. Pretty much until the piston speed comes too high that the engine will fall apart or vibrate itself to pieces. BUT you can't make much more torque in NA engine, because there is just no way to put more air and fuel into the cylinder than it's displacement is. That's why NA engines can achieve only certain torque per liter because it's defined by laws of nature. To make more torque you need to compress the intake air... Of course you can make engine more efficient by rising the compression ratio etc. but again there is limit on how big MEP you can achieve on pump gas because of knock sensitivity.

                  But I heard from reputable source that Dynojet dynos give way too optimistic hp/torque readings because of error in the code or something like that. So those WHP numbers are pretty much Crank HP numbers in reality. And in that case those previous numbers are plausible.

                  Why bother with dyno jet if there are plenty of bolt on dyno packs locally - have you ever actually taken your car to a dyno to be tuned?


                  Plenty of power avail in modern computing to map more power out of a na engine.
                  OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

                  Z4 non powered steering rack fits e30



                  Euro e46 2005/6 320d 6mt gearbox into E30 with M20 hardy and beck 1985 327s engine

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Wanganstyle View Post
                    Why bother with dyno jet if there are plenty of bolt on dyno packs locally - have you ever actually taken your car to a dyno to be tuned?


                    Plenty of power avail in modern computing to map more power out of a na engine.
                    I have not bothered, but earlier in this thread the unnaturally high dyno results were made in dynojet. And I may have spend some time in dynoing cars ;)

                    But getting more hp out of "modern" NA engine is not something that can be done just by tuning (unless the engine has been restricted from factory like e9x 328 vs 330. Maybe few % more but not much. You first need to do mechanical mods and the tune the engine for those. Running engine is not some magical thing that you can make more hp with ecu that has more computing power. No. It's just matter of correct ignition timing and fuel amount in these old engines that don't have variable valve things etc. And even the oldest ecu's can easily do that and get max hp out of the engine. More computing power can of course get better driveability and other things.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by pazi88 View Post
                      I have not bothered, but earlier in this thread the unnaturally high dyno results were made in dynojet. And I may have spend some time in dynoing cars ;)

                      But getting more hp out of "modern" NA engine is not something that can be done just by tuning (unless the engine has been restricted from factory like e9x 328 vs 330. Maybe few % more but not much. You first need to do mechanical mods and the tune the engine for those. Running engine is not some magical thing that you can make more hp with ecu that has more computing power. No. It's just matter of correct ignition timing and fuel amount in these old engines that don't have variable valve things etc. And even the oldest ecu's can easily do that and get max hp out of the engine. More computing power can of course get better driveability and other things.
                      The factory certainly isn't going to max it's engines and provide a warranty as well as meet emissions standards. Usually the tuning gains is actually just letting off the factory restrictions.
                      john@m20guru.com
                      Links:
                      Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
                        The factory certainly isn't going to max it's engines and provide a warranty as well as meet emissions standards. Usually the tuning gains is actually just letting off the factory restrictions.
                        Yes that's where that few % increase comes from.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by pazi88 View Post
                          I have not bothered, but earlier in this thread the unnaturally high dyno results were made in dynojet. And I may have spend some time in dynoing cars ;)

                          But getting more hp out of "modern" NA engine is not something that can be done just by tuning (unless the engine has been restricted from factory like e9x 328 vs 330. Maybe few % more but not much. You first need to do mechanical mods and the tune the engine for those. Running engine is not some magical thing that you can make more hp with ecu that has more computing power. No. It's just matter of correct ignition timing and fuel amount in these old engines that don't have variable valve things etc. And even the oldest ecu's can easily do that and get max hp out of the engine. More computing power can of course get better driveability and other things.


                          10% power gains is commonly and repeatedly made locally from bolting on an exhaust and dyno tuning the f20/22c engines.

                          Going from 200rwhp to 220rwhp on a motor that makes 120/hp -109hp a liter factory from Honda at the flywheel is pretty good proof that NA power is avail via bolt on parts and dyno mapping.
                          OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

                          Z4 non powered steering rack fits e30



                          Euro e46 2005/6 320d 6mt gearbox into E30 with M20 hardy and beck 1985 327s engine

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Wanganstyle View Post
                            10% power gains is commonly and repeatedly made locally from bolting on an exhaust and dyno tuning the f20/22c engines.

                            Going from 200rwhp to 220rwhp on a motor that makes 120/hp -109hp a liter factory from Honda at the flywheel is pretty good proof that NA power is avail via bolt on parts and dyno mapping.
                            Yes pretty much as I said. Mechanical mods and engine tuned for those makes more hp.

                            But my original point was those unnaturally high TORQUE numbers previously compared to engine displacement = false hp readings from those dynojet dyno results. You can't say that this or that particular tuner is better than some other if these better tune results are based on false dyno readings.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by pazi88 View Post
                              Yes pretty much as I said. Mechanical mods and engine tuned for those makes more hp.

                              But my original point was those unnaturally high TORQUE numbers previously compared to engine displacement = false hp readings from those dynojet dyno results. You can't say that this or that particular tuner is better than some other if these better tune results are based on false dyno readings.


                              I’m with you here; I don’t believe in Dynojet.

                              Bolt on dyna pack is the way to go
                              OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

                              Z4 non powered steering rack fits e30



                              Euro e46 2005/6 320d 6mt gearbox into E30 with M20 hardy and beck 1985 327s engine

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Car also ran a 13.1 three times the same night with a 2.1 60ft on the dragstrip. 105mph trap speed. (all from memory)

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