IE 3.0 L stroker kit - any good/worth it?

[PeaveyBassist]

No. Get an S50.

True Story.

Will

[Jarvis]

No. Get an S50.

NO, waste many months and thousands of dollars pretending to build various motors, THEN get and S50.

[Madhatter]

I dont think that was the question, it was, is the IE kit worth the money, and the reply is, no, you could assemble the same parts for lesser money yourself. The money saved would pay for your machining costs to have the block rebored and the bottom end balanced.

Rebuild a fresh engine vs a junkyard, im going with the new rebuild. When you add up the cost of a transplant, plus the fabrication needed to make it fit, you arent going to save any money over rebuilding the M20. Sure you might make a little more horsepower than the M20 (probably not going to make any above a worked 3L thoughl), but your engine is still an unknown, coupled with the extra parts cost for the S50 (compared to the M20), engine swaps arent as great as some people think.

Anyone who swaps a used engine into a car and doesnt plan to have to rebuild it somewhere down the line is an idiot. They are usually the same people bitching because their used motor blew out of warranty and now its going to cost double the price to rebuild it. Its not as clean cut as people make it seem, and its the main reason why i cant understand how come people put stock, small capacity M50/M52 motors into E30's. When you actually sit down and work it out, even the S50US isnt that great a deal, for all that cost, you still come to the same 240hp figure (and torque outputs are probably still going to be similar), then you factor in the added weight, it doesnt make a load of sense to me. I can understand if your M20 detonates and you need a new engine, or something else fails and you still need a new engine, just saying the motor is so much better just isnt true. In it's standard, swapped form it is marginally better, but it requires some thought on the matter rather than just ripping the motor out.

[Brew]

Anyone who swaps a used engine into a car and doesnt plan to have to rebuild it somewhere down the line is an idiot. They are usually the same people bitching because their used motor blew out of warranty and now its going to cost double the price to rebuild it. Its not as clean cut as people make it seem, and its the main reason why i cant understand how come people put stock, small capacity M50/M52 motors into E30's. When you actually sit down and work it out, even the S50US isnt that great a deal, for all that cost, you still come to the same 240hp figure (and torque outputs are probably still going to be similar), then you factor in the added weight, it doesnt make a load of sense to me. I can understand if your M20 detonates and you need a new engine, or something else fails and you still need a new engine, just saying the motor is so much better just isnt true. In it's standard, swapped form it is marginally better, but it requires some thought on the matter rather than just ripping the motor out.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

First off, saying that anyone that puts a used engine in a car is an idiot... just a dumb statement, period.

Secondly, you are comparing a 3L M20 to an S50. An M20 with 240hp is very, very modified, has aftermarket engine management of some type, and is close to its maximum power output. You cannot expect a motor that is that modified to have anywhere near the longevity of a stock motor.
An S50 on the other hand is BONE STOCK. All factory parts, and can easily run great for 150k+ miles. Plus there is a plethora of aftermarket parts available, and software available for almost any modification. 240whp is very attainable with bolt-ons. IMO, the M/S50 motors are much easier to work on also. And the fabrication involved with the motor swap is exhaust, thats it. With the right parts, everything else bolts together/plugs in.

[Jon325i]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

First off, saying that anyone that puts a used engine in a car is an idiot... just a dumb statement, period.

Secondly, you are comparing a 3L M20 to an S50. An M20 with 240hp is very, very modified, has aftermarket engine management of some type, and is close to its maximum power output. You cannot expect a motor that is that modified to have anywhere near the longevity of a stock motor.
An S50 on the other hand is BONE STOCK. All factory parts, and can easily run great for 150k+ miles. Plus there is a plethora of aftermarket parts available, and software available for almost any modification. 240whp is very attainable with bolt-ons. IMO, the M/S50 motors are much easier to work on also. And the fabrication involved with the motor swap is exhaust, thats it. With the right parts, everything else bolts together/plugs in.

^^^True dat^^^

I will agree with madhatter in that shoving in a used engine isn't the hottest idea. Having it thoroughly checked over is a given. Maybe pull the head to refresh the top end and ensure the shortblock is ok. Personally, I would make an engine rebuild part of the equation no matter what. There's just too many unknowns running a used engine.....for all you know the guy that used it last revved the snot out of it every time the light turned green.

Jon

[Madhatter]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

First off, saying that anyone that puts a used engine in a car is an idiot... just a dumb statement, period.

Secondly, you are comparing a 3L M20 to an S50. An M20 with 240hp is very, very modified, has aftermarket engine management of some type, and is close to its maximum power output. You cannot expect a motor that is that modified to have anywhere near the longevity of a stock motor.
An S50 on the other hand is BONE STOCK. All factory parts, and can easily run great for 150k+ miles. Plus there is a plethora of aftermarket parts available, and software available for almost any modification. 240whp is very attainable with bolt-ons. IMO, the M/S50 motors are much easier to work on also. And the fabrication involved with the motor swap is exhaust, thats it. With the right parts, everything else bolts together/plugs in.

You do? well you are wholeheartedly making a fool out of yourself. Go back and read what i said, you seem to have conveniently removed a nice portion of my post. I clearly said

Anyone who swaps a used engine into a car and doesnt plan to have to rebuild it somewhere down the line is an idiot

Is this a common trait with americans to misquote people and post their own spiel about why someone was incorrect? You took the above line, removed the key issue about the engine rebuild, then posted the above to suit your purpose and totally change the entire statement i made.

As for the real comment, what part of it is dumb? an unknown engine with limited warranty fitted to a vehicle with an owner expecting a lifetime of use out of the engine?

If you wanted to talk about dumb, you should look at your hacking attempt at my post. Buying a used motor, fitting to a vehicle, then not planning to have to rebuild it in the near future is stupid, it is idiotic and above all else, it is unrealstic which is no way to ensure reliability from your newly fitted motor. The fact is, used engines are largely unknown values, you should start planning for a rebuild when buying a used engine so you arent caught out when the day comes where the engine wears out or does a bearing (which is, the majority of times, going to be sooner rather than later).

It is a false economy to bank on a used engine giving you many years of extended life, espeically in the case where some of these engines are now approaching 10+ years of service life. A lot of people seem to forget just how old some of these engines are getting.

Im comparing a stroked M20 to M50's, M52's and S50's, if you notice i said that you would probably have a little extra horsepower (except maybe where a worked 3L was concerned) doing the engine swap, however the M20 would be freshly built, providing known good internals which should provide you with many more years of service. Again, you simply took part of my post and used it how you wished, ignoring everything else i said in the same statement.

My point i made is, comparing the M50 and M52 engines which produce 170hp and 192hp in different configurations, to an M20 isnt as clean cut as people seem to think (people, in particular you guys in the US) jump on the transplant bandwagon right away without even giving any thought to what they are doing.

Throw a worked 3L out of the equation totally, get rid of it, take a stroked M20 via the eta method, clean up the engine, do a little porting to match manifolds and gaskets, and clean up the cylinder head. What are you left with? an engine that produces (fairly easily) somewhere in the region of 190hp+ (potentially more depending on cam changes, manifolds, etc). This can be done for very little money, the stroker route is well known, and is simple enough for the DIY to accomplish.

Compare it to what you get from transplanting a 192hp M50/M52.

Cost - Both to purchase the motor, parts needed to be swapped out so the motor fits (things like brake/powersteering components? maybe not an issue with LHD cars), then any parts which may need to be fabricated.

Weight - 20-25kg (45-60lbs) of added weight to the front of the car.

Engine Condition - Totally unknown factor, compression and leak down tests do not provide an indication of bearing wear. There is really no way to tell the real condition of the engine without pulling it down. You might get 6 months out of it, you might get 6 years, compared to a freshly built M20, you know what to expect from it, there isnt any logical reason why it shouldnt last another 15 years.

Power output - So far the stock engine produces similar figures to a fairly basic stroked M20. Swapping the engine for power gains is not a logical conclusion when similar figures are achieved. Now you can work your transplanted engine to produce higher figures, but it comes back to cost doesnt it. To work the twin cam engine is potentially (and realistically) going to be more expensive than the single cam m20. A combination of more components required, plus the still realitive "new" factor associated with the engines has many component prices higher than those found for the M20.

So what have you done? spent double the cost of building a stroker to transplant a used engine into a car, adding excessive weight to the front (which you should accomodate by either shifting weight around or increasing spring and damper rates to accomodate the weight), for very little gain in power. Now, show me where the sense is found in this? there is no debate that a worked twin cam engine has potential for impressive gains over its stock condition, however, any money you spend on these components further lengthens the divide between the M20 and M50/M52 transplants.

[Madhatter]

Now bring the 3L back into the equation, to practically buy a new rotating assembly you are looking at

$300-$500 for crank
$700-$800 for new pistons, pins, rings, etc
$800-$900 for new rods

For as little as $1800 (going to depend on your brands of course) you can purchase brand new, forged components to match the crank, if you were to replace all the added components within the M20 (all your bearings, gaskets, waterpump, oil pump, thermostat, bolts, etc) it comes to around $500 in parts. Consider having your head worked, and reconditioned, plus your boring work for the block, and having the bottom end balanced, a figure around $1000 (possibly slightly more, depending on the hours spent on the head) for the above, an extra $400 or so for a fresh cam to go with the newly breathing head. Your total comes out at around $3700 for parts and machining to build a totally fresh motor.

How much is an S50 to purchase? you might be very lucky to pickup one around the forums for $3000, more if you hitup ebay for a complete item (and a large premium for low mileage engines) or visit wreckers like bavexchange or allauto. How much would you spend to install it, including the parts you need to fit it? $4500 is not an unreasonible figure.

Fit a decent exhaust system to both cars, plus all the ancilliaries (oils, fluids, filters, etc) you would buy to get both in place, so say another $500-$700 all up depending on what you do with your exhaust/headers.

What you end up with is engines producing similar figures, except one has been rebuilt while the other has not. Even if you went crazy on the 3L with ITB setups, lightened rockers, oversized valves, reshaped ports, you still have a buffer between the price of dropping in an S50, to the price of building an M20 which you can utilise in making all these small gains.

The next part really is nonsense, i mean, the 3L is nothing more than a stroked, overbored, engine, something like many manufacturers produce year in, year out, its nothing special. What is modified about the engine that is the above norm to achieve 240bhp? Seriously im sick to death of people saying worked engines are unreliable, that is a total fallacy. Poorly planned (that includes these people with illusions of 7000+rpm engine speeds), poorly built and designed worked engines are unreliable. An M20 with a large throw crank, utilising standard engine oiling systems, bearings and tollerences, aftermarket forged con rods and pistons, plus a modified cylinder head does not make an unreliable, short life motor.

These people who suggest engines like the above have a short life span simply dont understand the workings and the mechanics of an engine. Name for me two parts in the build of a stroker which is seen as detrimental to engine longevity, explain why the part is going to wear and what has caused it. Quite frankly, a built stroked M20 with quality components, good machining and balancing and put together by a builder who knows what they are doing is going to be just as reliable and retain a service life just as long as the engine before it.

You also assume that all 3L motors require aftermarket management, thats simply not the case at all. The only real issue of contention with the stroker motors is your ability to alter ignition timing on the standard unit given adjustments might need to be made. This can be fixed with aftermarket chip solutions very easily and there are examples out there which are still run the motronic systems.

Ahh, there is/was never any debate that the S50 couldnt produce more power once modified, show me anyone, anywhere who said it couldnt. However, that price is significantly above the cost of transplanting the engine in the first place, and in the end you are still left with an original engine and aftermarket parts, still running on the original bottom end and still yet to be rebuilt. It's a no brainer that if you want power and you plan to modify the engine, its a great choice, however what i said was

its the main reason why i cant understand how come people put stock, small capacity M50/M52 motors into E30's. When you actually sit down and work it out, even the S50US isnt that great a deal, for all that cost, you still come to the same 240hp figure (and torque outputs are probably still going to be similar), then you factor in the added weight, it doesnt make a load of sense to me.

Small capacity and stock engines, i never said anything about modifying it, and i never said to discount any of the swaps. What i said is, people should not write the M20 off so quickly, many of them have no idea what they are talking about what so ever. You should sit down and actually think any of the swaps through before simply saying xxx is crap, because the whole situation of worked M20 vs engine swap isnt as clear cut as many people in here seem to make it seem.

As for working on the engines, i dont see how you can come out with that comment, given the extra space the twin cam engines take up in the engine bay of the E30. Out of the car, you couldnt get much simpler than a single cam overhead six, thats like the bread and butter of engine designs.

The only thing that throws a spanner into the works is the euro spec engines, US engines pale in comparisson to those supplied to euro delivered vehicles, these swaps are where much larger gains are to be found.

Quite simply, i would never, ever consider swapping in a twin cam motor from the M50/M52 family with a capacity less than 3L. Even if we had access to the motors for a similar price as you guys do, the cost of doing it, the lack of any increase in power, plus the added weight of the swap, then when you throw in the hassles of wiring it all up, it just isnt worth spending the money.

To me, a lot of people swapping in 2.5L motors and the like always seem like they are trying to do things on the cheap, its quite ironic when you consider the cost of the swap, you could probably have modified stroker (im not talking a balls out 3L either), and save a bunch of effort.

Swapping due to a blown engine or from a 4 to a 6 makes a load of sense to me, swapping to something else, gaining weight, spending money, and having nothing else to show for it but a whole bunch of plastic under the bonnet, doesnt.

This is way off topic and has nothing at all to do with the question asked by the thread starter, people always drag the engine swap into the argument. He wasnt asking if it was worth it compared to swapping engines, he was asking if the kit was worth it in terms of what you get compared to collecting the parts himself. As ive already said, no, it is not, you can buy the same parts for quite a few hundred dollars less, plus if you went that way yourself you can get custom rods and pistons to suit pretty much any compression ratio you wish. I listed some of the parts above, the pistons and rods are your main costs, the crank itself is rather cheap. Save the money and spend it elsewhere, like your machining work.

[nando]

on the subject of the IE kit, no I don't think it's worth it. I have a price list going that includes a crank, S50 rods, forged pistons and all the little crap like gaskets and mounts and I'm up to ~$2k. that extra $500 could go to dyno tuning or additional intake mods (big bore TB and/or extrude honed intake) that probably make a larger difference than an extra .1 liters of displacement.

The IE kit is also missing things like rods and all the other details, which do add up to quite a bit. I know you can just use your i rods, but a set of good used S50 rods isn't very expensive and I think the added strength and weight reduction is worth it. basically it's not hard to put together a similar or even better kit for less money than what IE is charging. the only benefit I can see is you get a new crank, but if you get a used one and have it properly checked for cracks etc. you shouldn't have any problems.

[FredK]

Madhatter, longest post evar. Just kidding. :D

[Madhatter]

Nando, totally agree. Its not even that great value when you do add up what you get, a new crank is under $2000 to buy elsewhere, plus the cost of a set of forged pistons, you only save a few hundred dollars (which you expect, given that they have to buy the cranks and pistons, then supply them to you).

[Madhatter]

I will agree with madhatter in that shoving in a used engine isn't the hottest idea. Having it thoroughly checked over is a given. Maybe pull the head to refresh the top end and ensure the shortblock is ok. Personally, I would make an engine rebuild part of the equation no matter what. There's just too many unknowns running a used engine.....for all you know the guy that used it last revved the snot out of it every time the light turned green.

Jon

My entire point exactly. The problem is you cant gauge the condition of a bottom end without pulling things appart and looking. Once you remove caps and bearings you need to replace bolts anyway, so you might as well keep going and tear the lot down.

There is no magic test that is going to tell you exactly what your engine is like, there are a bunch of tests you can do to give you an approximate idea, but it is no indication of just what it is going to be like. There is a reason warranties are limited on used engines, its because you cant really accurately gauge how long they will last.

[JJGBMW323]

What would be the best way to get a crank? Do they sell it seperate?

I'd have a hard time finding a s50 crank down here, and even then I don't have any shops to modify it for me.

I got my s50 crank on bimmerforums in the classied section.

Its from a 95 m3..I plan on using e36 m3 rods and custom pistons.

But I want to enjoy the already built 2.8 right now..
I will build the 3.0 liter later on down the line.

later,
J

[Jarvis]

Madhatter - you don't live here so you're not really in touch with the actual cost to Americans with these two different engine options.

You can either spent $3K+ on a 240hp M20B30 that is tuned to it's limit, or swap in a 240hp S50B30US that is bone stock.

Another $1K put into either motor gets you maybe 10-15hp with internal work on an M20 or 25hp+ with bolts on's for the S50.

N/a, the M/S50 has way more potential than the M20. Same situation with FI and aftermarket support.

It's one thing when someone wants to remain in a certain auto-x/track class with the stock engine block. But if that's not a consideration, hp/$ you cannot do better than an S50.

[Madhatter]

Ahh, yes iam. Ive been looking at engines for the past year, pretty much every bmw forum and wreckers on the planet, plus ive been buying these parts from the US (some of which you cant even purchase down here, like M3 cranks for example). Show me where the numbers arent correct, all you have done is tell me about modifying the S50 (which i never said anything about).

You are telling me things i never disagreed with, seriously, what is the problem with comprehension here? i said the twin cam motors have more potential, im not going to say they dont, thats just silly.

I dont really agree with your comment on forced inducation and aftermarket support though, there are many tallented builders of M20 engines about the place, a few very clued up people who have been doing this for many, many years. Its not difficult to find people selling turbo kits for them either, along with the huge amout of DIY people doing it, there is more than enough support and information out there.

And no, i disagree with your hp/$ comment. Your intial expenditure is much larger to purchase an S50 and install it rather than build an M20, so it cant simply be better $$/hp. The comment only rings true if you plan to spend money above the cost of the installation, which for many people, simply doesnt happen (as they have to get over the cost of the engine) till much much later if at all.

Im not debating the fact they can be modified to produce more horsepower, im not even suggesting how much they cost to do so. Im simply comparing building the motor to swapping in a used engine from a wrecker, and just how that cost relates to building a stroker. Simply because people discount the motors so quickly without really knowing what they are saying.

[FredK]

Ah, but isn't the cost of a piggyback engine management unit an added cost of the M20 stroker?