Miller mass air

[LowR3V'in]

That's pretty crazy! Thanks for posting.

Is the "psik" a war-chip/cai? sorry if that's a dumb question.

[brody]

Is this 3 different cars ? Looks amazing. I will dyno my car back to back, Will you guarantee a minimum hp gain?

Same car, different times hence the wearer correction to even it out.

I will guarantee you are happy with the gains. Do you want me to guarantee overall or a peak number?

[LJ851]

Stock vs MAF vs PSIK nothing else. Did the PSIK to our other shop car today.


13 PEAK HP over MAF. the largest gain over stock with the PSIK is 30+ HP at 5200ish RPM

Is this 3 different cars ? Looks amazing. I will dyno my car back to back, Will you guarantee a minimum hp gain?

[Kershaw]

30hp holy shit!

i'd like to order 3 for my rx8. :rofl:

[brody]

Stock vs MAF vs PSIK nothing else. Did the PSIK to our other shop car today.



13 PEAK HP over MAF. the largest gain over stock with the PSIK is 30+ HP at 5200ish RPM

[e30trooper]

My stock SE30 put down 150whp. The top running SE30s are putting down almost 160. The only "mod" we're really allowed is a .020 over. Fresh motor makes a big difference...

spec e30?

[LJ851]

If you use a good cam as a core this really is NOT an issue. We have done about 10 reground cams here and the ONLY ones that required oversized eccentrics were the two people who wanted a big ass 292 cam.

It's not about requiring larger eccentrics or any fitment reasons, it's about what it does to the geometry of the rocker and it's varying ratio as the valve is opened and closed. The lift motion is already sub par with a full size base circle and reducing the base circle (to gain lift) just makes it worse.

Can you get a performance gain with a regrind? Yes.

Will it be as much gain as with the same grind and a full base circle? No.

If you are desiring maximum gain out of a cam, full size is the only size.

[priapism]

A 2.5L M20 with "bolt ons" is lucky to see 150whp as far as I'm concerned.

My stock SE30 put down 150whp. The top running SE30s are putting down almost 160. The only "mod" we're really allowed is a .020 over. Fresh motor makes a big difference...

[MR 325]

Sorry nando, this just ins't true. A regrind cam (smaller base circle) negatively impacts the already not so hot rocker motion. Rocker motion is one of the larger shortcomings on our single cam engines.

that's one of the reasons why I don't personally like them, but that doesn't mean it can't perform well if the base circle is ground properly, which was my point. I'm also assuming that you're using an oversized eccentric to make up the difference. anyway that's totally off topic.. :p

If you use a good cam as a core this really is NOT an issue. We have done about 10 reground cams here and the ONLY ones that required oversized eccentrics were the two people who wanted a big ass 292 cam.

[nando]

that's the question that hasn't been answered (needs to be on the same car, back to back), but, actually I don't care about that as much. I *know* an intake like Miller's will make more power than the stock airbox on my engine - but I don't have the time to build a custom shield for the one I have (plus it's really too big of a filter anyway). So I just stuck the stock airbox back on.. it makes me sad after 6000rpm, but so does sucking in 200* air from the radiator at low speeds. :p

[Kershaw]

so i have a question... the genIII maf makes 20hp over stock. and the psik (which is also a maf conversion) makes 25hp over stock.

so the long tube is only good for 5hp, amirite?

[nando]

that's one of the reasons why I don't personally like them, but that doesn't mean it can't perform well if the base circle is ground properly, which was my point. I'm also assuming that you're using an oversized eccentric to make up the difference. anyway that's totally off topic.. :p

[LJ851]

huh? look, I don't like regrinds for other reasons - but from a performance standpoint, if it's done right there's no real reason it can't work well.

Sorry nando, this just ins't true. A regrind cam (smaller base circle) negatively impacts the already not so hot rocker motion. Rocker motion is one of the larger shortcomings on our single cam engines.

[nando]

Brody, i am not doubting that the PSIK is a step up from Stock and nobody here seems to be but please shows us what difference between the GENIII MAF and PSIK on the same car.

...............

but where is GENIII vs PSIK (with no supporting mods)? this is needed to justify gains going to the PSIK over the regular GENIII MAF. If you were trying to sell someone on the PSIK over the normal MAF what evidence would you use to justify the extra $334?

the two cars in above links are different so a delta wont work otherwise the biggest gain seems to be lowend which is counter intuitive. Not to mention that the second link seems to be an unhealthy stock car as undicated by peak hp at 5300rpm.

that's exactly what I'm talking about! it would not be hard at all to seperate just the intake kit from the MAF kit in a dyno - both could be tuned for your MAF kit. right?

In my opinion some of the gains would not be purely be due to reduced restriction which is an over simplification of how an intake system works. I have suspicion that the engine likes the longer tube length and diamter that the PSIK provides because of the change in intake pressure waves that it creates. It may also be due to the lack of an airbox so to speak which produces positive results.

I agree, what I'm saying is, increasing the size of the pipe in front of the small TB isn't the primary cause of improvement.

If they would sell me the tube, elbow brackets etc for a sensible price (i.e. not the same price as a full kit as i also dont need a MAF or software) then i would buy it and actually test it out on the dyno independantly. I find it strange that they can't just not mount the MAF and quote a reduced price......

Yeah, I don't get it. There's a market for people like you and me, who are never going to buy their products anyway - ship it without the MAF for $395 and make some money? Why not?

The quote above, why does everyone always question the tuning part of the MAF as the real result factor? That is the reason. The car will lose power if you try and put a MAF on it without a tune. The tune recalibrates the ECU so it can make use of the MAF. Of course the tune plays a roll, without it the conversion will make a car that does not run worth shit.

We compare bone stock to our MAF or PSIK because those are the things we sell, we don't sell chips for AFMs we sell MAF conversions.

Digger, you are right about the tube design. A shorter version did not make as much of a benefit.

because the MAF tune is irrelevant to me! This is what you are failing to understand. Look, you aren't going to gain a huge amount of power from changing from 13.5:1 AFR to 13:1 AFR (or vice versa, depending on the engine). You are going to gain power by optimizing ignition timing, which has nothing to do with the MAF. the MAF part of the tune is just optimizing the fuel ratio for the engine (not for the MAF). It doesn't matter what you're using to measure load or airflow, the optimial fuel ratio and ignition timing is going to be the SAME on a given engine. If you did the same amount of tuning with some other load device, you'd get really similar results. That it's a MAF, MAP or Alpha-N or whatever doesn't make any difference to me. And I'm never going to buy a MAF!

If you need to have an explanation a to why a new from blank cam is better than a regrind im sad.

huh? look, I don't like regrinds for other reasons - but from a performance standpoint, if it's done right there's no real reason it can't work well.

I didn't say 200whp from intake and exhaust, read again numtard. Also, what are YOUR baseline numbers for a stock M20? What ate your flow numbers before and after for your heads?

But you did say 200whp from a 2.5l (stock bottom end). I'm telling you, this is basically impossible. that's going to require around 240bhp, or nearly 100hp/l. To make that from stock displacement is going to take about 8,000rpm. That's revving the piss out of it - I take mine to 7500, beyond that would make me cringe. You couldn't do that with stock pistons either, because the cam you'd need to be optimized for that much power/RPM would have to be rather wild, and would require a wild static CR to suit.

Saying you could do 200whp from a 2.5l, with just headwork/cam and other bolt ons, is absolutely stupid. You're talking about a 40% gain in power. To do that, you have to make the engine 40% more efficient. Don't you see how hard that would be? It wouldn't be anything *near* stock afterwards.

I guess sarcasm is the one that actually owns you? The "thanks" was a FU too remark.

Why so defensive? We're skeptical for a reason. This doesn't help your case.

As far as your opinion on my attitude and price, just shows your ignorance of what the market will handle. We have been doing this since 2005 and have gotten to a point where sales are consistent and the market potential as far as sales performance goes is as perfect as it will realistically be. We can't get any better on our pricing and we purchase in more volume than necessary. Unless you want more shit farmed out to china instead of keeping jobs and money in north America the price won't come down. But hey, your a millionaire because of this industry right?

The forums are valuable, the people who google something find and read these posts and buy our products. The people sitting here arguining do just that, argue with me about what they THINK our business should be doing without any knowledge of what is actually going on in the industry and our business.

I know that wasn't directed at me but I don't care about your prices.

What I'm telling you is there is a market for people like me and digger, who don't have anything stock left of their engines, that need an intake kit (because no good ones exist), and you COULD seperate the "MAF" part of the equation from the performance gain (dyno full PSIK vs GenIII MAF on the same car), but you refuse (or get really defensive) when asked. Why? You have an opportunity to corner a niche market and make some people happy.

I don't care at all about your MAF tune because it's useless to me - my engine is already optimized. Changing the intake would only mean rematching my VE table to my already optimized AFR target. That's not what I consider tuning, it would quite literally take me about 5 minutes and 3 WOT pulls. If I changed something inside the engine that required a different MBT or AFR for the best torque, that would require tuning (on a dyno), but an intake kit (and a MAF by itself) doesn't do that.

Maybe there's some big problem with ordering your intake tubing without a MAF, I don't know, but you could just say that instead of getting upset and telling us we don't know WTF we're talking about. You could think of me as a potential customer instead of an enemy to argue with.

[brody]

A 2.5L M20 with "bolt ons" is lucky to see 150whp as far as I'm concerned.

Since you are clearly the expert here, tell me what the issue is with a reground cam? I myself and many MANY others I know have made what I consider to be great power with them. I guess you wouldn't consider our numbers good though since you're making 200whp with intake and exhaust mods.

Of course we want new things to be possible for the M20 engine. I have nothing against your kits and I do believe they provide gains. As nando said what we are questioning are the ridiculous numbers you are providing us.


The people that are "bashing" him here have actually built performance M20 engines, some of us have done a few of them. We know what it takes to make power out of these engines in REAL LIFE. As I said above I have nothing against his MAF kits, it's his numbers that are BS.


Sarcasm owned you on this one.


Maybe if you dropped the attitude problem and the clear disregard for these forums and their potential to sell your products you'd make even more sales! Then, you could charge a lower price. After all, more sales = more happy customers which = more word of mouth which = more sales. But hey, these forums don't matter, right?

If you need to have an explanation a to why a new from blank cam is better than a regrind im sad.

I didn't say 200whp from intake and exhaust, read again numtard. Also, what are YOUR baseline numbers for a stock M20? What ate your flow numbers before and after for your heads?

I guess sarcasm is the one that actually owns you? The "thanks" was a FU too remark.

As far as your opinion on my attitude and price, just shows your ignorance of what the market will handle. We have been doing this since 2005 and have gotten to a point where sales are consistent and the market potential as far as sales performance goes is as perfect as it will realistically be. We can't get any better on our pricing and we purchase in more volume than necessary. Unless you want more shit farmed out to china instead of keeping jobs and money in north America the price won't come down. But hey, your a millionaire because of this industry right?

The forums are valuable, the people who google something find and read these posts and buy our products. The people sitting here arguining do just that, argue with me about what they THINK our business should be doing without any knowledge of what is actually going on in the industry and our business.