MarkD Chip vs Miller MAF w/ Basic Chip

[digger]

No kidding. Damn Arabs nerfed my M20... Couldn't have been emission reasons, E30's don't have EGR thank Christ...

they added catalytic converters to the low comp engines, why the exact reason for lower CR i dont recall

[CabbE30]

I've always wondered the same thing but I love my MarkD chip too much to give it up. 17# injectors & 91octane. Everyone who's driven my car is surprised that my M20 pulls so hard (141k miles though).

[EatsHondas]

I've always wondered the same thing but I love my MarkD chip too much to give it up. 17# injectors & 91octane. Everyone who's driven my car is surprised that my M20 pulls so hard (141k miles though).

I'm hoping his chip for stock injectors + 91 octane can give the same result. I feel like my car stops making power/stops accelerating as hard after 5000-5500 RPM. I'm hoping this is because my injectors are a little dirty, but I've seen dyno sheets that seem to reinforce this behavior. Is it because the stock cam won't let it breathe or the injectors are leaning out?

[CabbE30]

I'm hoping his chip for stock injectors + 91 octane can give the same result. I feel like my car stops making power/stops accelerating as hard after 5000-5500 RPM. I'm hoping this is because my injectors are a little dirty, but I've seen dyno sheets that seem to reinforce this behavior. Is it because the stock cam won't let it breathe or the injectors are leaning out?

That's about where I pull the hardest, I honestly cannot say what it is.
What I can offer you is a (shaky) video of my car pulling 0-95.

[EatsHondas]

You have stock M20?? That's really impressive man. 3.73?

[CabbE30]

Stock m20, just chip & injectors, 3.73. Ultimately the health of the m20 is the maker/breaker.

[brody]

Hey guys, just want to chime in here because I have been reading a lot on posts on various forums from people who have NEVER used our stuff or have never installed it properly LOL.

The MAF conversion (any properly tuned MAF conversion for that matter) will provide more power and torque as well as response than any performance chip alone can. End of story.

You would not believe how many people refuse to read a manual and install our products with the required steps outlined in the manual. BMW tech are the absolute worst for that!!

Anyway, 8/10 people don't think they need to read the manual and therefore have issues with the MAF. As stated in this thread, there are a lot of crappy cars out there to begin with that run very poorly and they think throwing new performance parts at it will cure the conditions. We all know that if you don't address the actual problem(s) no matter what you install you will still have a poorly running car.

If anyone every has any doubt, please contact us so we can explain things. Nothing hurts the community more than misinformation.

[digger]

Hey guys, just want to chime in here because I have been reading a lot on posts on various forums from people who have NEVER used our stuff or have never installed it properly LOL.

The MAF conversion (any properly tuned MAF conversion for that matter) will provide more power and torque as well as response than any performance chip alone can. End of story.

You would not believe how many people refuse to read a manual and install our products with the required steps outlined in the manual. BMW tech are the absolute worst for that!!

Anyway, 8/10 people don't think they need to read the manual and therefore have issues with the MAF. As stated in this thread, there are a lot of crappy cars out there to begin with that run very poorly and they think throwing new performance parts at it will cure the conditions. We all know that if you don't address the actual problem(s) no matter what you install you will still have a poorly running car.

If anyone every has any doubt, please contact us so we can explain things. Nothing hurts the community more than misinformation.

in that case you should be able to quantify the gain from a custom tuned AFM engine to a custom tuned MAF engine?

[brody]

in that case you should be able to quantify the gain from a custom tuned AFM engine to a custom tuned MAF engine?

Peak gains would be at least the same as a brand name chip. But larger gains (under the peak number) are greater and you cannot get the throttle response a maf permits. Its more accurate and reacts faster to change.

[digger]

Peak gains would be at least the same as a brand name chip. But larger gains (under the peak number) are greater and you cannot get the throttle response a maf permits. Its more accurate and reacts faster to change.

no disputing about throttle response advantage ...

if there is no real peak-peak gains which is what you sort of imply by saying "at least the same", then why are gains more pronounced in the midrange ?

[e30Rooster]

Hey guys, just want to chime in here because I have been reading a lot on posts on various forums from people who have NEVER used our stuff or have never installed it properly LOL.

The MAF conversion (any properly tuned MAF conversion for that matter) will provide more power and torque as well as response than any performance chip alone can. End of story.

You would not believe how many people refuse to read a manual and install our products with the required steps outlined in the manual. BMW tech are the absolute worst for that!!

Anyway, 8/10 people don't think they need to read the manual and therefore have issues with the MAF. As stated in this thread, there are a lot of crappy cars out there to begin with that run very poorly and they think throwing new performance parts at it will cure the conditions. We all know that if you don't address the actual problem(s) no matter what you install you will still have a poorly running car.

If anyone every has any doubt, please contact us so we can explain things. Nothing hurts the community more than misinformation.

You are the one misinforming the community, and your product is garbage.

Why don't you describe what I went through with the months of emails not responded to, phone calls not picked up unless you select the option for sales on your 1800 number, and terrible customer service I went through to show you pictures of how I installed your product, the voltage read outs step by step on your trouble shooting guide and replacing everything with brand new OEM parts except the starter on my rebuilt engine. Then you finally tell me you may have missed a resistor in the maf and would fix it and send me a new tune, then you send it back and it still reads the incorrect voltage? are you fucking kidding me?
Then I get pissed decide to take it to a real shop (because I'm not a diagnostician or a mechanic) to diagnose the problem using a "sun scope" and everything they can think of and it ends up being the tune you sent me was wrong on top of the incorrect voltage reading from the maf.

Also how you fail to say the PSIK won't fit correctly if you have a power steering reservoir because of how large the 90* elbow from the intake tube to the throttle body is. Changing how you produce the psik going from a welded tube to a single formed one with a cheap mounting tab that broke off after the first drive and that you need to relocate your horn to mount it.

How you let a new employee "manufacture" aka soldier the little circuit board and super glue it to a CNC'd plastic housing that allows you to use the factory wiring harness to a OEM maf, that is probably made in china because it broke the first time I unplugged it from the factory harness.

Lying to community, not quality testing your PSIK. (the voltage outputs of the maf's you send out like you say you do in your stupid annoying repetitive phone message every time I call your customer service 1800 number.)

How you try to keep the appearance of a high end shop when it's just You, Alex, who ever the new employee is, and the guy you can't get in contact with that does your tuning even though you have his phone number/email.

I can keep going as I have more to complain about and will be more then willing to post all e-mails and general email responses that I'm sure you send to the many angry people who fail to read the "installation guide".


Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[EatsHondas]

You are the one misinforming the community, and your product is garbage.

Why don't you describe what I went through with the months of emails not responded to, phone calls not picked up unless you select the option for sales on your 1800 number, and terrible customer service I went through to show you pictures of how I installed your product, the voltage read outs step by step on your trouble shooting guide and replacing everything with brand new OEM parts except the starter on my rebuilt engine. Then you finally tell me you may have missed a resistor in the maf and would fix it and send me a new tune, then you send it back and it still reads the incorrect voltage? are you fucking kidding me?
Then I get pissed decide to take it to a real shop (because I'm not a diagnostician or a mechanic) to diagnose the problem using a "sun scope" and everything they can think of and it ends up being the tune you sent me was wrong on top of the incorrect voltage reading from the maf.

Also how you fail to say the PSIK won't fit correctly if you have a power steering reservoir because of how large the 90* elbow from the intake tube to the throttle body is. Changing how you produce the psik going from a welded tube to a single formed one with a cheap mounting tab that broke off after the first drive and that you need to relocate your horn to mount it.

How you let a new employee "manufacture" aka soldier the little circuit board and super glue it to a CNC'd plastic housing that allows you to use the factory wiring harness to a OEM maf, that is probably made in china because it broke the first time I unplugged it from the factory harness.

Lying to community, not quality testing your PSIK. (the voltage outputs of the maf's you send out like you say you do in your stupid annoying repetitive phone message every time I call your customer service 1800 number.)

How you try to keep the appearance of a high end shop when it's just You, Alex, who ever the new employee is, and the guy you can't get in contact with that does your tuning even though you have his phone number/email.

I can keep going as I have more to complain about and will be more then willing to post all e-mails and general email responses that I'm sure you send to the many angry people who fail to read the "installation guide".


Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

WHOA. That sucks that you went through all that rooster, but I appreciate you piping up. Did it ever end up running right for you?

in that case you should be able to quantify the gain from a custom tuned AFM engine to a custom tuned MAF engine?

I'd really like the answer to this too. The AFM doesn't pose a flow restriction when the "barn door" is fully open, so it wouldn't make sense that the physical MAF boosts power. It has to be the accompanying tune.

After fixing a massive vacuum leak, throttle response is much better, so I just realized what I was missing the whole time. When I had the leak, I just assumed the massive off-idle stumble was the AFM grumpily getting out of bed. Glad I was wrong.

[e30Rooster]

Still runs rich, if I could do it again I would go megasquirt plug and play and some dyno time. On a stock m20 I would leave it stock and mess with the exhaust and suspension.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[brody]

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

WHOA. That sucks that you went through all that rooster, but I appreciate you piping up. Did it ever end up running right for you?



I'd really like the answer to this too. The AFM doesn't pose a flow restriction when the "barn door" is fully open, so it wouldn't make sense that the physical MAF boosts power. It has to be the accompanying tune.

After fixing a massive vacuum leak, throttle response is much better, so I just realized what I was missing the whole time. When I had the leak, I just assumed the massive off-idle stumble was the AFM grumpily getting out of bed. Glad I was wrong.

Do you guys know how the AFM works? Just because you are full throttle doesn't mean the AFM flap is full open. The AFM outputs a 0 to 5 v signal. Until you are at maximum RPM/Flow, the flap will not be open its fullest anything less than max flow at max RPM and the flap is restricting the flow.

On a MAF, there is no flap to open as velocity and rpm increase, so you have less restriction at all times.

You are the one misinforming the community, and your product is garbage.

Why don't you describe what I went through with the months of emails not responded to, phone calls not picked up unless you select the option for sales on your 1800 number, and terrible customer service I went through to show you pictures of how I installed your product, the voltage read outs step by step on your trouble shooting guide and replacing everything with brand new OEM parts except the starter on my rebuilt engine. Then you finally tell me you may have missed a resistor in the maf and would fix it and send me a new tune, then you send it back and it still reads the incorrect voltage? are you fucking kidding me?
Then I get pissed decide to take it to a real shop (because I'm not a diagnostician or a mechanic) to diagnose the problem using a "sun scope" and everything they can think of and it ends up being the tune you sent me was wrong on top of the incorrect voltage reading from the maf.

Also how you fail to say the PSIK won't fit correctly if you have a power steering reservoir because of how large the 90* elbow from the intake tube to the throttle body is. Changing how you produce the psik going from a welded tube to a single formed one with a cheap mounting tab that broke off after the first drive and that you need to relocate your horn to mount it.

How you let a new employee "manufacture" aka soldier the little circuit board and super glue it to a CNC'd plastic housing that allows you to use the factory wiring harness to a OEM maf, that is probably made in china because it broke the first time I unplugged it from the factory harness.

Lying to community, not quality testing your PSIK. (the voltage outputs of the maf's you send out like you say you do in your stupid annoying repetitive phone message every time I call your customer service 1800 number.)

How you try to keep the appearance of a high end shop when it's just You, Alex, who ever the new employee is, and the guy you can't get in contact with that does your tuning even though you have his phone number/email.

I can keep going as I have more to complain about and will be more then willing to post all e-mails and general email responses that I'm sure you send to the many angry people who fail to read the "installation guide".

I am sorry you have such a distaste. You bought from us when we were undergoing a major transition with out business. So things were very scattered, I will admit that. The PSIK has always been made from a single mandrel bent tube. The flanges have always been tig welded on. Your PSIK was the first to have a flange break and you even said no worries, you can live with it.

Every car we have ever installed our PSIK and or MAF conversion on has worked without incident. Where there were troubles, it was always something else on the car. A tune is a tune an the only thing that makes a tune "change" is hardware.

The person you think I can't get a hold of, is Dan Miller. Founder and tuner for Miller Performance. He is/was taking a break from the car scene for this exact reason. People who refuse to acknowledge that it is something specific to their car that is not like the rest of the cars who install our products without a problem.

You will find MANY MANY MANY customers on the forums who have our products installed and work exactly as advertised. You will also find many threads were people are blaming our products, calling them crap or whatever only later in the thread, stating they found a problem unrelated to our product that was the culprit.

Our offer still stands, let US look at your car, figure out what is wrong and make it right. It's not hard for us to do but doing it remotely over the phone and or email is retarded especially when you are so close.

The Tubes are made by Woolf Aircraft in Romulus MI. The MAF sensor is made by Ford, the CNC plug is made by Decisive Machine in BC, the Circuit is made in house, the 90* elbow is made in California and on and on, nothing made in China.

Again, with 99% of "problems" related to customer mistake, car deficiencies or lack of knowledge of what is actually done to the car, it's hard for us to carry on support for months and months without getting to see the car in person. I am not saying you are right or wrong. There is that one car once in a blue moon that needs special attention.

Again, I extend our help to you but we need to see the car in person. Lucky for you, Dan Miller lives in Lynnwood now (even closer to your than Abbotsford) He is done travelling for our other business and you can call and arrange something with him.

There is so much I can go on about but it sounds like you are just a hater now and will refuse our help just to make a "point."

[bmwman91]

I'd be more curious to know how the Miller MAF conversion + chip compares to a M30 AFM + chip. The M20's AFM is really under-sized (the opening is the same size as the M42's). In the case of the M42, you gain zero power from a MAF on a stock engine and I had dyno pulls proving it, but throttle response and idle stability definitely improve. I can see the M20 gaining power across the power band from a MAF since the stock AFM is too small, as well as a big improvement in throttle response.

Based on my experience, the flap door is absolutely not posing a restriction. It takes about 0.5lb of force to open it all the way and it is ~4in^2. So you get ~0.125PSI dropped across it, which is a hell of a lot less than you lose to the intake manifold and ports in the head. The M20's problem is that the opening in the AFM is too small in the first place...hence why the M30 AFM swap got so popular.

Anyway, OP take the angry reviews of the product with a grain of salt. I really only ever pipe up about products when I am pissed, as do most people. Happy customers are usually less vocal. I have NOTHING to do with Miller and was working on a competing product at one point, so take my input as impartial. I have not used their stuff, but it appears that they have put legit work into it.