2.7 ETA Performance; Chips vs. Motronic upgrade vs. ?

[fiveightandten]

I have an '86 bone stock ETA. I'd like to get some insight on my options for performance upgrades. The car is a 3rd car for me, and a weekend/fun car.

I would strongly prefer to:
-Not remove my head
-Not need to rev super high for power
-Not spend too much money, as the cost of an M50/M52 swap (though more work) isn't that high these days.


Can anyone comment on the gains and power band I would get from the following:
1) Turner/Conforti chip $199: 24HP/28TQ
2) SSSquid chip $140: No published gains
3) Mark D chip $209: No published gains
4) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with completely stock 2.7ETA, i intake manifold, i throttle body, i injectors, i AFM(air fuel module), i FPR(fuel pressure regulator 3.0bar), all i pulleys(fan, water pump, crankshaft), i belts, i thermostat housing, i 173ecu(computer in glove box), all 1.1/1.3 Motronic harness and sensors, spark plug wires.
5) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with all the above + i cam and i valve springs.


Are 4 and 5 worth all the effort and extra cost over a chip? Is there a significant difference between 4 and 5 (i'm aware with 4, i'd have to physically limit myself to revving past 5K. I'm fine with that). What are people spending on 4 and 5 these days? Any other options that i'm missing?

[squidmaster]

4) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with completely stock 2.7ETA, i intake manifold, i throttle body, i injectors, i AFM(air fuel module), i FPR(fuel pressure regulator 3.0bar), all i pulleys(fan, water pump, crankshaft), i belts, i thermostat housing, i 173ecu(computer in glove box), all 1.1/1.3 Motronic harness and sensors, spark plug wires.
5) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with all the above + i cam and i valve springs.


Are 4 and 5 worth all the effort and extra cost over a chip? Is there a significant difference between 4 and 5 (i'm aware with 4, i'd have to physically limit myself to revving past 5K. I'm fine with that). What are people spending on 4 and 5 these days? Any other options that i'm missing?

Absolutely worth it (5 specifically), but you'd still need a chip to be running right.

[fiveightandten]

Absolutely worth it (5 specifically), but you'd still need a chip to be running right.

Thanks for the reply. I haven't read through the entire Motronic upgrade thread. I was under the impression that it ran off the stock software. But I suppose a chip isn't a big deal after swapping all the other stuff over. I just can't seem to find any info on how much of an upgrade this actually is, and how it compares to just a chip, or how it compares to a 24V swap (M50 or M52).

My biggest curiosities are:
1) What kind of power comes out of 4 and 5.

2) Where these different options sit in with one another, and if there are big gaps between any of them. For example. Is this pretty accurate?:

Stock ETA < Chipped ETA < #4 < Stock 2.5i < #5 < 24V swaps

[jmc1590]

Can anyone comment on the gains and power band I would get from the following:
5) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with all the above + i cam and i valve springs.

Using an '86 eta, Motronic 1.3, i cam & valve springs, I got 130HP/150 torque on a dyno. Not a huge gain, but well worth it in my opinion. I have since changed to a Seta lower end, and a reground cam (274, I think.) I've yet to find a dyno near by, but after 3K the motor really wakes up.

I can only imagine what a good tune would add!

[Dakotademon7]

Great thread. This is info that would be useful to me also.

[Andy.B]

A healthy stock 2.7 with a chip, i exhaust, and a 3.25 rear end moves pretty well. Throw on a CAI, and it sounds pretty mean too, imho.

I would think that if your going to go as far as swapping the motronic 1.0 to 1.3, the extra work to swap in an 885 head is pretty minimal for the gains you can expect.

[fiveightandten]

Using an '86 eta, Motronic 1.3, i cam & valve springs, I got 130HP/150 torque on a dyno. Not a huge gain, but well worth it in my opinion. I have since changed to a Seta lower end, and a reground cam (274, I think.) I've yet to find a dyno near by, but after 3K the motor really wakes up.

I can only imagine what a good tune would add!

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like you're the guy I should be talking to. :up:

If, for the sake of generalization, we did the 15% loss math to your setup, you should be making around 150 HP/173 TQ. That's a decent increase in HP, but almost no torque. But what has me curious, is the fact that the Turner chip claims better gains than this.

Knowing that the Turner chip is embellishing things, and knowing that your engine probably wasn't making factory power to begin with (and the dyno by be conservative), did you ever had your car chipped to compare the 2?

I'm be curious of your opinions as to how it stacks up to:
-A chipped ETA
-A stock 2.5i
-An M50 swap

Thanks again for the reply. It's good to talk to people that have info on this upgrade. It seems like a viable option.

A healthy stock 2.7 with a chip, i exhaust, and a 3.25 rear end moves pretty well. Throw on a CAI, and it sounds pretty mean too, imho.

I would think that if your going to go as far as swapping the motronic 1.0 to 1.3, the extra work to swap in an 885 head is pretty minimal for the gains you can expect.

I've thought about this as well. The head swap seems like more trouble than its worth. I've thought about going with a chip and a cam. I have a friend that works at an exhaust shop, so that's an option for an exhaust system (something custom).

Any input on how the chips do? I have an E36 M3 and DD an E40 330ci, but i'm completely new to the E30 world. I've never driven a chipped ETA. Does it bring it up to the performance of a 2.5i? Just looking for yardsticks to put these mod options into prospective.

[Lyfesideways]

I have an '86 bone stock ETA. I'd like to get some insight on my options for performance upgrades. The car is a 3rd car for me, and a weekend/fun car.

I would strongly prefer to:
-Not remove my head
-Not need to rev super high for power
-Not spend too much money, as the cost of an M50/M52 swap (though more work) isn't that high these days.


Can anyone comment on the gains and power band I would get from the following:
1) Turner/Conforti chip $199: 24HP/28TQ
2) SSSquid chip $140: No published gains
3) Mark D chip $209: No published gains
4) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with completely stock 2.7ETA, i intake manifold, i throttle body, i injectors, i AFM(air fuel module), i FPR(fuel pressure regulator 3.0bar), all i pulleys(fan, water pump, crankshaft), i belts, i thermostat housing, i 173ecu(computer in glove box), all 1.1/1.3 Motronic harness and sensors, spark plug wires.
5) Motronic 1.1/1.3 upgrade with all the above + i cam and i valve springs.


Are 4 and 5 worth all the effort and extra cost over a chip? Is there a significant difference between 4 and 5 (i'm aware with 4, i'd have to physically limit myself to revving past 5K. I'm fine with that). What are people spending on 4 and 5 these days? Any other options that i'm missing?

i can chime in on this..
i ran with 2.7 stock eta ecu
2.7i on stock eta electronics with dinan chip

now 2.7i on motronic 1.3
also soon to be installed sssquid 2.7i chip.


i ran 2.7i for about 2-3 months on stock eta electronics with dinan chip,
roughly 5-6 drift events. its runs the car, idles little funky from time to time.
kinda stumbled down low and boom came alive mid range. rev limit was 5500 so was tagging it constantly.
Finally did the motronic 1.3 swap and lemme tell ya its all around better car!!
Starts right up with cold or hot, WAY SMOOTHER POWER DELIVERY.
No more stumble down low, and very improved top end!! still have yet to hit 6200 rev limit, no need as traction is pretty much non existent thru first 3 gears....
Very impressed with the motronic swap, i would highly recommend it.

As far as the sssquid chip im a very excited to see what the gains of a strictly 2.7i chip over the stock motronic 1.3 b25 setup...

[ForcedFirebird]

Answer this honestly.

How much work are YOU wiling to do?

I have done all of the above, and you OP has a lot of basis on what you are capable of with your tools as a hobbyist.

I have a soft spot for 86 eta for some reason...

[fiveightandten]

i can chime in on this..
i ran with 2.7 stock eta ecu
2.7i on stock eta electronics with dinan chip

now 2.7i on motronic 1.3
also soon to be installed sssquid 2.7i chip.


i ran 2.7i for about 2-3 months on stock eta electronics with dinan chip,
roughly 5-6 drift events. its runs the car, idles little funky from time to time.
kinda stumbled down low and boom came alive mid range. rev limit was 5500 so was tagging it constantly.
Finally did the motronic 1.3 swap and lemme tell ya its all around better car!!
Starts right up with cold or hot, WAY SMOOTHER POWER DELIVERY.
No more stumble down low, and very improved top end!! still have yet to hit 6200 rev limit, no need as traction is pretty much non existent thru first 3 gears....
Very impressed with the motronic swap, i would highly recommend it.

As far as the sssquid chip im a very excited to see what the gains of a strictly 2.7i chip over the stock motronic 1.3 b25 setup...

Thanks for the data point. Are you running a totally stock i head? How would you put the power in, in comparison to a stock 2.5i and, say, an M50 swap?

Answer this honestly.

How much work are YOU wiling to do?

I have done all of the above, and you OP has a lot of basis on what you are capable of with your tools as a hobbyist.

I have a soft spot for 86 eta for some reason...

Thanks for the reply.

With the ETA, i'm not willing to touch the bottom end, and I would strongly prefer to not pull the head off. I'm willing to swap the cam, and obviously springs will come with that as well, and a Motronic upgrade is doable. Swapping i intake components and manifold is no big deal. But IMO, getting into bottom end work, and pulling the head off for an i head that will have to go to a machine shop, add to downtime and cost ect, doesn't seem worth it. It seems that effort would be better spent just doing a cheap 24V (which would, however, take away from some of the old raw mechanical quirkiness of the car).

This is a 3rd car for me. I have an E36 M3 that's reasonably modified, and an E46 330ci that I DD (keeping that stock). I've done transmission swaps, clutch jobs, headgasket job, manifold swaps, full suspension refresh (every piece of rubber under my M3 has been replaced) etc. in my somewhat small garage. I'm capable of doing this stuff. But it's a matter of return for investment with this car. I want it to be faster, but i'm trying to get an idea of the cost/time investment to benefit ratio for my options.

The E30 is something I bought as another fun car. I searched for almost 6 months to find one without rust. This is very difficult around here. I happened across this 69K mile, bone stock 1986 es. The car is pretty nice. By far the nicest one I looked at. I'll be keeping it as long as i'm physically capable of driving it.

My goal is to get the car some more power. But I do intend to keep it for quite some time. I'd like to do things right the first time, but I have no idea how some of these mods stack up to, say, a stock 2.5i, or a 24V swap (where they stand in the mix).

I'll use some arbitrary comparisons...If a Motronic upgrade on a stock engine gets me to 2.5i performance, I think that's worth the effort. If a chip gets me 90% there for a fraction of the time investment, then the Motronic isn't worth it. If a Motronic upgrade with an i cam and breather mods gets me 90% to a 24V swap, it's a complete no brainer.

The issue is, i'm having a hard time finding comparisons of these things to yardstick these mods against things i'm familiar with. Do I just slap a chip in and call it a day, because the extra effort of a Motronic upgrade only gets me 10% more power? Do I not waste my money on a chip because the Motronic upgrade is vastly better? Just trying to get a feel for what the best course of action is.

I hope that explains my thinking. Apologies for the novel. ;)

[frontin40]

Subscribed

[squidmaster]

A chipped ETA definitely isn't 90% of a tuned 2.7i.
A chipped ETA is great for daily driving, absolutely nothing wrong with it. You'll enjoy a higher rev limiter, (5000-5500 depending on what you decide to go with), and better performance, but it doesn't quite compare to the higher power and rev limit of a 2.7i (6800+ rev limit depending on tune).

Stock [1.3] Motronic (I assume you meant 1.3) on a stock ETA will definitely not bring you to stock m20b25 performance, if that were the case there would be absolutely no reason to swap the head over, there are quite a few differences with the engines that just software wouldn't offset the differences. The 885 (B25) head is better flowing, has dual valve springs, a better cam, and is just a better over-all system.

A 24v swap will be more time consuming, more expensive, and more work, but a lot of people are very happy with it, and as long as you go M50TUB25 it will be a noticeable gain over a 2.7i. Some people however feel disappointed after doing an M50 (non vanos) swap and the results aren't astonishing.

From the factory the M50 only has about 20hp on the M20, albeit a better power curve and a better tq:hp ratio.

[Chessmaster]

just keep that eta up to date and chip it if you like, and save your money for a swap. even a good condition stock m50 will walk all but a extensively modded m20. ive been offered multiple complete s50/s52 for under 1.5k. a running drop in m5x ready with all swap parts etc should run you 1-2.5k.

[Gary Horneck]

A chipped eta, with exhaust restrictions removed goes pretty well. I autoX'd my first season with just a chip, exhaust and a 3.73, and had a ball. The 2.7i conversion is the way to go IMO. I used the EU323i 731 head, and the car is a torque monster. Squids tune for the 2.7i is awesome. I spent the day yesterday giving rides at our Performance Driving School to students, and scared the crap out of them all on course. "What the hell is in this thing?" is the most common comment pulling back into grid. I'm usually 1-2 seconds off the BSP Vettes times, so I'm happy.

[jmc1590]

With the ETA, i'm not willing to touch the bottom end, and I would strongly prefer to not pull the head off. I'm willing to swap the cam, and obviously springs will come with that as well, and a Motronic upgrade is doable.

A couple things to keep in mind.... The standard eta head, #1264200, comes with a 4 journal cam. The "i" camshaft is a 7 journal. Modifying / drilling the additional oiling holes is not a big deal, but I wouldn't do it with the head installed. (just imagine where all those chips could get!)

As I see it, if you are going to change the cam, you'll need to pull the head. If you've got that far, I would just continue and change to an 885 head at that time.

You can source the head, cam, springs, rockers and shafts all ahead of time, have all the machining done, and the head assembled prior to pulling the old head off. Very little, if any down time. Just get all your gaskets and other small parts (head dowel pins) ahead of time.

As a time reference, I just finished a head R&R. One weekend to disassemble and pull the head, one weekend to replace and re-assemble. Could have been faster, but work interferes at times!