To chip or not to chip? That is the question...

[Vincent Brick]

You aren't going to come close to the gains possible on the modern turbo engines from a simple tune

I definitely realize that, it would just be nice if you could squeeze maybe 20-25whp out of these things without having to seemingly spend cam/rockers/headwork money, like you can with a lot of N/A 4cyl stuff. I just want the car to pull harder and be able to break the tires loose more easily if I choose.


And yeah, mine is a daily driver, 80 miles a day. I work for a company that manufactures turbo system components, I could turbo very cheap, they would help considerably, but I cannot sacrifice reliability and don't particularly want the added smog hassle.

[digger]

I definitely realize that, it would just be nice if you could squeeze maybe 20-25whp out of these things without having to seemingly spend cam/rockers/headwork money, like you can with a lot of N/A 4cyl stuff. I just want the car to pull harder and be able to break the tires loose more easily if I choose.


And yeah, mine is a daily driver, 80 miles a day. I work for a company that manufactures turbo system components, I could turbo very cheap, they would help considerably, but I cannot sacrifice reliability and don't particularly want the added smog hassle.

look at the Miller PSIK they claim that gain for 525 which is 2-3 times more than a off the shelf chip but you got to pay to play....

[nando]

I'm just trying to get a little more power from my M20 and stay California legal, but without spending $1500+ on a head, cam, etc.. The few experienced E30 guys and EMS tuners I know told me not to bother with a chip, that its 5whp and not worth anyones's time. I'm just really disappointed with the M20's performance and by the lack of bolt-on stuff I can do to this car, to the point I am considering moving on very soon. I want something considerably quicker.

Again, not trying to hijack, but I think we are on a very similar, though probably previously-discussed search for current info.

what exactly are you expecting from a 30 year engine design? You should get a 335i - those guys love "bolt ons". drop the car off at the dealer to change their wiper blades at $150 an hour, then write a check for a JB4 installation and you're done. ;)

[Vincent Brick]

I expected something that responded better to bolt-ons, pretty simple. 30 year old design, yes, but its not like Bosch Motronic is significantly outdated when compared to the EFI systems of 15-20 years ago which I am referring to, outside of having a flapper AFM still instead of a MAP sensor or MAF.

Fuck some heavy E92 pig. No I'll be honest, I like those kinds of easy bolt ons right now, but its because I enjoy doing the shit myself and don't have a place to keep a project car right now. I've watched JB4 installs/removals performed, I would feel like an idiot if I had to pay someone to pull my cowl panel off and plug 2 harnesses in. :)

That Miller setup tho, that's more what I'm talking about. Similar cost/gains as a good intake and AF/X ECU for a twin cam Neon and doesn't look like too much of a hassle to swap next smog in 2 years. If I continue to fail at finding a decent S50/S52 and still have the car that is..... Thanks for making me aware of that, I was hip to their stuff but not that particular kit.

[digger]

if people are tuning NA engines and getting good gains its because either the factory didnt do a very good job to begin with or the fuel the factory tuned it for was poor quality and they had to be conservative to make it reliable.

[Vincent Brick]

Yeah I don't know, you would have to ask Honda or Chrysler about that. All I know its it is simply not in my experience for a car such as this to respond so poorly to bolt-ons/tune, and from where I am standing it is more like a BMW thing and not an everyone else thing.

A shame I can't find ANY definitive info on whether that Miller kit is worth it or if they just pulled those dyno number out of their ass.

[nando]

I expected something that responded better to bolt-ons, pretty simple. 30 year old design, yes, but its not like Bosch Motronic is significantly outdated when compared to the EFI systems of 15-20 years ago which I am referring to, outside of having a flapper AFM still instead of a MAP sensor or MAF.

Fuck some heavy E92 pig. No I'll be honest, I like those kinds of easy bolt ons right now, but its because I enjoy doing the shit myself and don't have a place to keep a project car right now. I've watched JB4 installs/removals performed, I would feel like an idiot if I had to pay someone to pull my cowl panel off and plug 2 harnesses in. :)

That Miller setup tho, that's more what I'm talking about. Similar cost/gains as a good intake and AF/X ECU for a twin cam Neon and doesn't look like too much of a hassle to swap next smog in 2 years. If I continue to fail at finding a decent S50/S52 and still have the car that is..... Thanks for making me aware of that, I was hip to their stuff but not that particular kit.

you don't get big gains with bolt ons on any N/A BMW engine because they weren't designed with huge deficiencies in any one system. You don't gain huge power with an airbox because the stock airbox was designed well, you don't gain huge power with exhaust because the stock exhaust was already good, etc. Something like an old domestic that comes with horrid intake/exhaust designs is easy to fix with aftermarket parts, thus "bolt on gains".

So what you end up having to do is upgrade everything at once to be at the same level in order get any real improvements. I get it - not realistic in your situation. But realize what you are actually complaining about is because it was designed well to begin with.

[mr.]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and opinions. I knew before I started this thread that getting power out of an NA M20 is tough, but I'm not looking for crazy gains. As long as I feel the car to be a bit more alive and the butt dyno agrees then I'll be happy.

Numbers on a dyno sheet don't matter to me at the moment. However, I would like to hear some first hand experiences of anyone running a chip with bigger injectors or stock injectors.

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[BECKSTER]

However, I would like to hear some first hand experiences of anyone running a chip with bigger injectors or stock injectors.

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I ran 19lb Bosch greentops's with a BavAuto chip and it didn't do much power wise, the car ran and accelerated smoother though.

But my fuel economy sucked.

[nando]

The stock injectors are more than adequate for a mild M20 with bolt-ons.

[Streichholzschächtelchen]

I passed smog with 19# injectors and markd's 91 octane 17/19 chip. Ran rich at idle-2000ish and crackled a little on part throttle deceleration. Ran better below 2500rpm with stock 173 chip and 17# injectors, ran better with 19s and markd above 2500. Gave the chip to my buddy, who has 17# injectors. With 17#ers and said chip it did not run rich at idle any more, crackled on part throttle decel but not nearly as much as 19# injectors. Pulled just as hard up top as 19#ers as with 17#ers.

If I had to rank

1st 17# with markd
2nd 17# with 173 or 525 stock chip
3rd 19# with markd (injectors too fat for relatively stock engine)
4th stock injectors stock chip

M30 afm is a waste of time. I ran one for a little over a year and it stumbled if you hopped on it from a dig. Didn't feel as precise throttle response, didn't feel any gains over a stock m20 afm with stock air box. A cone filter cold air setup might net you a whole horsepower over the stock air box, it's very efficient.

Get a chip and some 17#ers, and if you want more, a cam (perhaps a turbo friendly cam). If you have a parts yard nearby you can snag an eta, or 2.8 crank for a budget stroker. Beyond these things, everything else is $$$ (turbo, maf, engine swap).