Custom 4 piston Ap brake kit

[Fidhle007]

Heeter, you also fail to understand the rules of business and you seem to miss the fact that it's perfectly normal for someone to say good things about a product their selling. It's all part of advertising, you point out the good points of your product and the bad points of a competitors product, and then the public decides whether to believe it or not. Lee has said nothing illegal or misguiding in any of his statements and the ball is ENTIRELY in your court now. You can decide you are fine without his products or you can decide you need them as badly as Kate525i needs Zyprexa, that's your right. You can decide once you've gotten Lee's products that you didn't need them after all in which case you simply got sucked in by his advertising. Welcome to America.

It seems however, that you have not fallen prey to the giant evil corporation that is Massive Brakes and have chosen to go your own route with your car. Good for you, I'm proud of you for seeing through the haze of false advertising! That still doesn't give you any right to make libelous statements about Lee directly or make disparaging remarks about his products, especially if you have no actual experience to base them on.

Learn something about the system before you critique it, you'll seem a lot smarter in the end...

[kolunda]

Just from my personal experience with using my car (318iS) on extended driving periods under hard braking, bigger brakes are a must. I ran a road with a few friends called the saluda grade, about 400ft of altitude change and lots of turns over about a mile worth of road, and after the 2nd trip my brakes were shot, where I either had to go the speed limit or risk flying off the edge of a cliff. My new brakes, which are not Lee's but e36 M3 fronts do not have this problem in the slightest. While I haven't tried the same road in a 325 or an M3, I can tell you my 318 was rendered unusable. Just my $.02

[Brian D]

Yeah, you're right Robert. Rob L dosen't think that you need big brakes for the track, he thinks that you need them for canyon running.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7366373&postcount=50

At least Lee dosen't condone assclownery on the street.

Oh, and could you suck Robs dick any harder?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9127831&postcount=53

Lee thinks that a BBK is essential for the track, you don't seem to think a BBK is ever needed. I think you both overstate your cases. Your personal attacks on Lee are what turn my stomach. You've demonstrated that it's possible to track your car sucessfully with stock brakes, let people make up their own minds about Lee's claims. Your vitriolic attacks on anybody that doesn't agree with you are what sets people against your arguement.

I track my car, I run stock brakes with decent pads, and I take Lee's claims with a grain of salt. You would serve your purpose of saving people from themselves and Lee's "coercion" by not being such a zealot, and less love for Rob Levinson.

[rwh11385]

Well, Lance. I am trying to understand where your antogonism comes from. All your arguments above are totally lame, and show there's clearly a personal problem between you and I, as you haven't yet brung a solid argument. Or do you have a personal agenda? What are you trying to prove? Is it because I dont think like you that you got all that hate? Come one. Chill out. You seem to have a great car, so enjoy it. Let's not start personal attacks here.

BTW Lance as for accusing me of being pushy and a "dirty scoundrel" of a saleperson, please read the thread below, last post. You'll realize that I barely mentioned the brand I produce when asked about BBKs.

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50666

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10257684&postcount=86

But for anyone attending track events, BBKs are a must

I don't know how exactly they operate BMW CCA DEs in our northern neighbor, but if you attempted to sprout such information to young students, you would be laughed out of the track and asked never to come back again. I do NOT know why this forum should be any different.

Like I mentioned before, if you want to play buddy-buddy, that's great - but it's not fair to tell people who don't know any better that BBKs are a must to hit the track. You can say they are a good idea for people who are in A group, etc. but there's no reason whatsoever to call them a "must". Being a "pal" and helping with info and then trying to coerce them into buying a big brake kit... that's just the wrong use of persuasion and friendliness on a forum.

Like I also mentioned before, people are not stupid and your potential clients should be well aware if they need or want big brakes. You have improved, for whatever reason whether from the flames you've received or just wising up on how business goes - you are now saying "come on. let's enjoy our car" instead of being an arrogant tool on bimmerforums or like you were to Trent.

But please - don't be that creep who is trying to squeeze people who want to track to get your kit - there is no need - and I do not think it is right whatsoever.

[rwh11385]

There is nothing to suggest he uses underhanded tactics, simply states the case and leaves it up to the person to buy his product.

yeah, because he has any posts of that type deleted in retrospect.

[Digitalwave]

Lee and I don't see eye to eye on some things, but honestly, Lance, you need to back off. This isn't going anywhere and the way you are trying to express your opinion white the Madhatter has an honest, civil debate with you is just childish.

[Massive Lee]

Well, Lance. I am trying to understand where your antogonism comes from. All your arguments above are totally lame, and show there's clearly a personal problem between you and I, as you haven't yet brung a solid argument. Or do you have a personal agenda? What are you trying to prove? Is it because I dont think like you that you got all that hate? Come one. Chill out. You seem to have a great car, so enjoy it. Let's not start personal attacks here.

BTW Lance as for accusing me of being pushy and a "dirty scoundrel" of a saleperson, please read the thread below, last post. You'll realize that I barely mentioned the brand I produce when asked about BBKs.

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50666

[Madhatter]

Could you be more of a prat?

where has lee ever said you couldnt track a car without a brake package? he markets his products for people who are looking to track their cars, in the case of his dedicated race kit, it really is a serious bit of kit.

Never does he tell people you must have it, in fact he will reccomend the street kit if you just want an increase in braking performance from standard, he's in the business of producing and supporting a big brake package and i see no problem with him outlining the problems and deficiencies of the standard brake system, these are clear truths and i challenge you to prove otherwise. In dealing with him personally he wanted to know a little about my setup and what it was to be used for, before suggesting a product just to make sure his brake kit was really something i needed. Other suppliers will simply just sell you the product, take your money and send you home.

Opposition with trent? the same trent that tried to make it seem like lee was an utter prick and doing nothing to help him when he purchased some of his products? Its all clear to see where all this hostility comes from now, its personal, perhaps you are friends with trent?

It looks like a real enough business to me, especially when you consider the amount of hours he has put in designing the components, not to mention all the machining costs for the various revisions all on his dime. Have you got any idea what sort of costs are involved in just having components manufactured? let alone scales and models drawn up/programmed for machining. He's prepared to put his money where his mouth is and put something on to the market which will upset quite a few "specialists".

Honestly, this is the reason why i dont post here much, there are a few hero's here with personal agendas who have no business calling out people like this. Speak to many of lee's customers, many of which you will find in here, look at his vendor verdicts, look back at posts where people are asking about a brake kit. There is nothing to suggest he uses underhanded tactics, simply states the case and leaves it up to the person to buy his product.

As for his product quality, this is the biggest pile of crap i have ever heard, if you dont own his product, dont use his product, havent seen his product first hand, and arent qualified as a mechanical engineer, what resources do you have to comment on quality of the components?.

Lee uses quality wilwood components, might i add, even supplies better calipers than UUC who use a dynalite caliper which is inferior to the superlite. His hats are beautiful and fit tight on the hub, the brake lines are great quality and dot approved, i showed my engineering friend (a 70 year old bloke might i add who builds 1/10th and 1/8th scale model trains from scratch, including casting and machining all his own components) the caliper mounts and he was suprised at how overengineered they are. To quote him, you'd twist your tyre off the wheel before you even look like cracking that plate. His support is great if you have issues, be it shipping through to fitment, even extending to the point where he takes his own time and money to help owners out with fitting.

Honestly, you bag lee but you have no experience with his product, no personal experience with the person, nor are you in any position to comment on the quality of his components. Yet you find this fine to slander the person? Pot calling the kettle black perhaps? you are guilty of exactly (and more) what you claim your gripe with lee is.

What gives you that god damn right you piece of trash? post something credible instead of just spouting off at the mouth, or shut the hell up. You bring nothing to the table other than trolling ability, when was the last time you offered anything usefull to the community? lets see you put your money on the line and design something to offer e30 owners, put your time up and your skills (if you have any) to develop a product.

I, along with lee's other customers will continue to reccomend and utilise his products, and im positive lee will continue to sell what is probably the best brake package you can purchase this side of $1200.

You on the other hand will continue to troll e30 forums spouting rubbish based on misinformation, spite and just general all round nastiness. Get a grip man, its pathetic. :weak:

Ohh and just for reference,



Real credibility powered by massive brakes race kit, you know the kind where people own and test the products for real before forming an opinion? :up:

[rwh11385]

go play your fiddle, fruit. this is a serious issue I have with how Lee does "business". He should realize that anyone who could possibly benefit from his brakes (on the track) would already have the experience and knowledge capable of making the decisions about if they would like a big brake kit by themselves.

his attempts to coerce people into believing there is a NEED for them just to track is ethically questionable in my book, and I won't stand for it. sorry if you support such dishonesty.

[Fidhle007]

Heeter, shut up. You've openly admitted you only come here to start shit so if that's your goal in life more power to you, just keep in off topic. I'm sure there are plenty of lesbian firefighters that would be much better targets than Lee.

[rwh11385]

doublepost

[rwh11385]

Ive purchased a kit because yes, my lap times can be increased by being able to brake later into a corner

wow, you increase your lap times, awesome!

In the end its simply up to the person to gauge if they need a kit, its their decision to buy it

That's what I believe as well, not to have some unscrupulous brake part retailer claiming it is impossible to track without his big brakes.

In dealing with lee he has been happy to discuss my needs based on existing experience and any future plans for the car. Not once have i ever felt he was pushy or aggressive in trying to sell me the components and he's quite happy to talk about both his and other existing kits out there without any bias at all (even to the point where he will suggest different products if he feels you dont need a big kit). So in short, he's been nothing but a total professional and im confident enough to look at ordering another kit for the other car.

In the comparison between RL and Lee on bimmerforums, it is quite clear that one is presenting information, and one is attempting to impose his opinion while sharing some info. Lee's behavior (with Trent) and dealing with opposition is not what I would ever call professional. Because, in the end, he isn't - this isn't a real business like UUC, it's more of a hobby - and that's reason enough not to trust the words coming from him more than a pal at the track. And I do have friends who are instructors of many years, and some are engineers, but would I trust their brake kit over a business who specializes in BMW racing equipment? No.

Is it cool that Lee is friendly on the forum? Sure. Is it cool to be Chicken Fucking Little and screaming our cars will fall down if we don't have BUG BREAKS!?! No way.

[Madhatter]

Not to be blunt or nasty, but you simply dont drive hard enough then, or you dont have the ability, i havent met anyone who races an e30 that hasnt atleast once pushed the limits of the braking system. Clamping ability aside, the main problem with the brakes is basically heat, both the ability to handle large amounts and the ability to shed it. To increase performance in these areas you really need to do one (or preferably both) of the following;

increase the surface area of the rotor by increasing the radial height.

or

increase the thickness of the rotor

Swapping to better quality pads and replacing your fluid with that of a higher boil point only prolongs heat soak issues where both the rotor and the pad compound has absorbed too much heat reducing your braking ability. Pads are designed to operate in a specific heat range, outside of this (especially if above the range) their frictional coefficient drops off significantly, so your braking suffers.

The other downside is because of their size, they have a reduced ability to dissipate heat, they end up trapping it in because they simply cant absorb and radiate enough of it away in between braking periods.

So what you can realistically end up with is a situation where both your pads and rotor get way too hot (ive actually seen the compound melt on an e30 before) which transfers this on to the caliper, especially in the case of cast iron or soft alloys used in oem items. Not only are you overloading the rotor/pad, but now because of the heat soak, the fluid boils and you have lost braking ability.

Its worrying that most people generally equate a lack of brake performance with a brake failure, ie out on the track and your pedal starts to soften up, equating it to performance loss. This sort of situation is not a performance loss, its a full system failure and its too late by then.

Ive purchased a kit because yes, my lap times can be increased by being able to brake later into a corner, its enough to drop inside some of the lighter cars and can make a world of difference. Since changing to better tyres i found the braking issues were actually magnified, because of the increased grip levels i found it was easier to carry more speed through a corner which lead to a higher average speed around the track. I simply dont drive enough anymore to really work on my ability, so a brake kit has made quite a difference. The other side of the coin is a preventitive one, on some tracks you may be able to hold off brake failure, but go to another track where high speed, deep prolonged braking is required and you will be in trouble. Id rather not have to worry about my brakes working when i go to grab the pedal, so many other things that need your full attention without having to worry about mechanical failure.

In the end its simply up to the person to gauge if they need a kit, its their decision to buy it and anyone purchasing one without doing some homework first is misguided.

In dealing with lee he has been happy to discuss my needs based on existing experience and any future plans for the car. Not once have i ever felt he was pushy or aggressive in trying to sell me the components and he's quite happy to talk about both his and other existing kits out there without any bias at all (even to the point where he will suggest different products if he feels you dont need a big kit). So in short, he's been nothing but a total professional and im confident enough to look at ordering another kit for the other car.

[Brian D]

He's quite helpful, upfront, and honest on bimmerforums. Just because he isn't on here trying to mislead people into buying a product he sells doesn't mean he isn't helpful. He has put a kit out there and knows those who want/need it will buy it, no need to attempt to convince someone of it. Besides, a big brake kit costs more than 90% of the cars on here are worth - if you had a business would you spend a lot of time here?

So Rob is only "helpful, upfront, and honest" to those who can afford to buy lots of parts from him?

I could argue with you about this, but what would it prove? I don't share your high opinion of RL, and I don't share your apparent dislike of Lee. Beyond that, this will devolve quickly into a "are BBK's necessary", and that's been done to death here.

[Massive Lee]

Hey Lance, if you prefer, we can discuss suspension set-ups or driving technique if brakes is not your cup of tea. I am not bad at setting up racecars with a few wrenches and a pyrometer . I also have several tricks up my sleeves to improve e30s' suspension. And I am not a bad track driver either :pimp: Cheers to all. Eggnogs are coming our way pretty soon.

If you guys are interested in what I do beside misguiding r3v members , have a look here.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/The%20Parts%20Factory/

Here are some roll center spacers for 2002s machined in British Columbia for Massive, by Kowalski's bro.