KONI vs BILSTEIN

[Earendil]

In my opinion...

DD with stock springs -> Koni's initially set at most .5 turns from full soft
DD with H&R Sports -> Koni's initially set at most 1.5 turns from full soft
A track car with H&R Race -> H&R springs are really too soft for a track/race car. I have them on my Spec E30, because that what the class rules require.

You come so close to answering my question, but end of diverging into stating that you don't like the H&R Race Springs. Good info still, but I'm left wondering what you think of shocks. Obviously for the spec class the B-shocks are your only option. But what would you choose if tomorrow they opened up the shocks only, and left you with the H&R Race?

[Cabriolet]

Personally I like dailying on HR sport springs and koni SA with GC camber plates. I had HR race, but im not a fan of getting beat to death on my commute. I've heard over and over that revlaved bilsteins are the best but for the price it's hard to justify them. however, stock bilsteins sports are way too soft for a spring stiffer than an HR sport. some local guys have blown several of them on HR race spring/coilover. and i think most of us would agree koni NA are just crap. but best bang for the buck is koni SAs. you pretty much adjust them as jim posted and it's a great ride for autoX and DD.

[LJ851]

Understand that the adjustments on Koni SA shocks only affect rebound damping.

Rebound damping changes do affect compression damping , but on a much smaller scale.

A shock has a negligible contribution to stiffness as compared to the springs. to get a firmer, stiffer ride, you increase the spring rates. Then set up the shocks for those rates.

I have to completely disagree here. On an adjustable shock you can effectively render the suspension static except for low speed movement. The stiffness feel of an overdamped suspension is as bad or worse than an oversprung one.

[jlevie]

You come so close to answering my question, but end of diverging into stating that you don't like the H&R Race Springs. Good info still, but I'm left wondering what you think of shocks. Obviously for the spec class the B-shocks are your only option. But what would you choose if tomorrow they opened up the shocks only, and left you with the H&R Race?

I would try Koni's, perhaps re-valved. Having Bilstein Sport shocks rebuilt every other year is a nuisance. But then I'm taking a race car where every bit matters.

I didn't say that I didn't like the H&R Race springs, only that if not constrained by class rules I'd use a much stiffer spring for better control of the car and more predictable handling. H&R Race springs, Bilstein Sport shocks, and 22/19mm sways (the Bimmerworld sways are the best) is a good, inexpensive combination. But you can do better.

[Earendil]

I would try Koni's, perhaps re-valved. Having Bilstein Sport shocks rebuilt every other year is a nuisance. But then I'm taking a race car where every bit matters.

I didn't say that I didn't like the H&R Race springs, only that if not constrained by class rules I'd use a much stiffer spring for better control of the car and more predictable handling. H&R Race springs, Bilstein Sport shocks, and 22/19mm sways (the Bimmerworld sways are the best) is a good, inexpensive combination. But you can do better.

Thanks a bunch for the information! I'm currently sitting on H&R Sports and billy sports. The shocks could possibly need a rebuild anyway, so if I swap up to H&R Race I could have them re-valved to match the Race. Sounds like the Bilstein sports even with a re-valve would not be a good match for the J-Stock? At least it seems most people don't run them together.

Budget is such that I look at "go fast" parts and the price equates to track days for me. Switching to Koni's? That'll cost two track days. Having the bilsteins revalved? That'll only cost a single track day! It's a weird economic world to live in.

[Holland]

Personally I like dailying on HR sport springs and koni SA with GC camber plates. I had HR race, but im not a fan of getting beat to death on my commute. I've heard over and over that revlaved bilsteins are the best but for the price it's hard to justify them. however, stock bilsteins sports are way too soft for a spring stiffer than an HR sport. some local guys have blown several of them on HR race spring/coilover. and i think most of us would agree koni NA are just crap. but best bang for the buck is koni SAs. you pretty much adjust them as jim posted and it's a great ride for autoX and DD.

I'm on my second set of Bilstein sports on the rear of my car, as I am running race springs as well. Bilsteins are OK, but there are definitely better options out there.

[jlevie]

Rebound damping changes do affect compression damping , but on a much smaller scale.

That may be and it probably depends on what adjustable shock you use. But we are talking about Koni SA shocks here and I haven't seen that affect.

I have to completely disagree here. On an adjustable shock you can effectively render the suspension static except for low speed movement. The stiffness feel of an overdamped suspension is as bad or worse than an oversprung one.

Well of course, if you can crank the damping up high enough you'll lock the springs. In a sense that is stiffer, but you've removed the compliance from the suspension and will have severe contact patch problems. I probably could have stated the idea better by stating that you use spring rates to control stiffness and shocks to control the springs.

[LJ851]

I probably could have stated the idea better by stating that you use spring rates to control stiffness and shocks to control the springs.

I agree 100% with this statement.

[jan318]

So I can use Konis SA with stock springs? Or would be a waste of money.

[Cabriolet]

waste of money.

[jlevie]

So I can use Konis SA with stock springs? Or would be a waste of money.

You can, and that is what I have on my "restoration project" car. The car is an 87 325is (03 build) that I have been restoring to like factory new condition. I have my Koni's set for 1/2 turn from full soft and the handling is, for the springs, about as good as you can get, regardless of how rough the surface is. I find the Koni's yield a better, less harsh, ride than Bilsteins and a better handling on rough surfaces than OE type Sachs/Boge shocks.

For all practical purposes the Koni's will be lifetime shocks as I can compensate for wear. So I would not consider them to be a waste of money.

[nando]

Konis will not last forever. no way.

no such thing as lifetime. you can compensate for some wear but they will blow out eventually. by 100k mine were completely toast.

[DRTSRFR]

Lifetime warranty though :D

[nando]

both have lifetime warranties :)

[DRTSRFR]

True.

I believe both have their place, it's very subjective. I deal with both platforms on different set-ups all over the world, my consensus is vague at best.

Ultimately, especially in the enthusiast world, it's different strokes...the area, uses, and user all come into play. I prefer an adjustable damper, but I'm a suspension tweaker. I'm constantly making changes to my liking. Sometimes for no reason than to entertain my curiosity, sometimes to better answer questions... sometimes, just because I have nothing better to do than turn knobs while I'm driving myself to the ends of nowhere on a sunny Saturday.

One thing I have found with Konis is many have no idea how to use the adjustment to their benefit. I constantly hear,"I turned them all the way firm and the car got bouncier." or, "I'm only turning the knob a quarter of a turn".

Both scenarios shout TROUBLE. Turning the knob to full stiff, with most street springs will, as JLevie said, ratchet the damper right down onto the bumpstop and render the suspension lifeless.

Most don't realize that a quarter turn on a Koni is a BIG change. When I speak to first time, or frustrated users, I tell them to make adjustments and visualize the face of a clock. Only make changes in "5 minute" increments. This usually yields much better results, and gives you a reference point so you can start over if necessary.