Camber Plates: Vorshlag vs GC

[Hellabad]

that test-video looks like bullshit, quite honestly. I heard how many clicks you had on that press, and if it's a 6-ton press, then I bet coil-over threads would strip way ahead of plate failure.

Not true. The "clicks" are from taking up slack, and then the vorshlag plate started bending right away, then it broke. After it broke, the guy kept pumping just to see what would happen. You have no way of knowing this was the last matchup, and every single demonstration used the SAME GC bearing carrier. Seriously. After we broke the last vorshlag, we tried to break the GC too. All it did was tilt the teeter totter further over to the side.

Also, how do you not record any pressures and just video tape it. I can do exact same test on my press and show results the other way.

Actually I don't think you can. You are welcome to try, and I have retained every single part here plus second footage from a second camera just to solve any arguments.

Very unscientific, and very bitter come back for Ground Control.

I disagree. This wasn't a test per se. Otherwise would have conducted it like the test style that you are probably thinking of. This maybe could be termed a battle, or a face-off. We spent a lot of time constructing a perfectly matched teeter-totter that would break whichever camber plate was weakest. That was our only goal, and the dramatic fractures were just gravy.

First of all, Vorshlags plates are shorter stack height, how did you get them up to the same height in the press. Secondly, if those bolts on GC plate didn't bottom out, could we expect the same result from GC plates?

The opposite is true. If you look at the beginning of the video, the GC plate is shorter and is shimmed up underneath with a steel plate. This was done by measuring with a caliper.

Personally, I like GC plates, but after seeing how unscientific their testing and R&D are, I will never buy from them again. I can Mickey Mouse shit in my garage just as well.

Again I disagree, we already did all of the testing and RD before we ever sold the first set many years ago. This is a demonstration that when somebody says their bearings are bigger or stronger or whatever, that maybe somebody needs to step up show what the truth really is.

And thats the bottom line.

[Massive Lee]

Girls. Let's cheer.

Imagine if Steve Job (Apple) and Bill Gates (Microsoft) had the same personal involvement in their products and used the same language on forums... It wouldn't be good for either products.

I may be known here for sometimes being hot blooded when it comes to social or political causes. And I don't fear expressing my points of view. But one thing I learned was to weight my words when it came to comparing Massive's products and the competition. Or do it with humour... ;) Each product may have an advantage over the other. And each one may be for a different crowd. That's how far I'll try to go. And at the end, it is the buyer who has better information and will be satisfied with a product that better suits his needs...

BTW I run GC camber plates but like very much the top plates of the new Vorschlag units with countersunk screws. That's exactly what I had designed a couple years back. And no. I don't think anyone "copied" me. Just the same solution to the same problem. ;)

Havent seen anything about strut travel and ride height. Thats what i want most out of plates, im low on travel

Stephen, once you shorten the struts, you won't mind plus or minus half an inch in stack height.

[Stephen]

Havent seen anything about strut travel and ride height. Thats what i want most out of plates, im low on travel

[Miasma]

Weak, Someone should have quoted what got edited out....

[BraveUlysses]

If you're willing to put that video of the Vorshlag plates breaking in your test session, why not record the force applied in the actual video or at least be willing to state it publicly instead of asking people to PM you for details?

[Aptyp]

that test-video looks like bullshit, quite honestly. I heard how many clicks you had on that press, and if it's a 6-ton press, then I bet coil-over threads would strip way ahead of plate failure.

Also, how do you not record any pressures and just video tape it. I can do exact same test on my press and show results the other way. Very unscientific, and very bitter come back for Ground Control.

First of all, Vorshlags plates are shorter stack height, how did you get them up to the same height in the press. Secondly, if those bolts on GC plate didn't bottom out, could we expect the same result from GC plates?


Personally, I like GC plates, but after seeing how unscientific their testing and R&D are, I will never buy from them again. I can Mickey Mouse shit in my garage just as well.

[Miasma]

Interesting...

[87e30]

It would be cool if there was a third party review of these products so we don't have to sift through the possible bias coming from each side of this conversation.

As is this is a pretty stupid way to get information.

[freeski27]

wow, well. I guess I know what plates I'll be getting.

Ill keep you guys guessing.

(I read everything.)

[Hellabad]

bullshit. in about 20 places. including the stupid "competitor" bearing pic you drag out that is the definition of libel.

[Fair!]

Vorshlag has publicly stated on bf.c that they WILL copy any GC designs that are not patented, and they have been true to their word. Many vorshlag products are not just a copy, but an exact duplicate of a part designed by and made by GC.

Jay, that statement is so utterly preposterous (and libelous, and untrue) that I am at a loss for words.

edit: After re-reading my post the next morning I realized it had too much brutal honesty and would simply have my company's name dragged through the same mud as GC's. I am not going to stoop to that level.

[Massive Lee]

Hi Jay

I still like your products very much. Don't worry.

But to show a plate design is defective, I guess it must be submitted to different documented levels of pressure. One plate after another (GC vs Vorschlag), so that the same pressure is applied equally, not on a tandem device. And the test shall be repeated on a few units to prove a flaw in design, and not a flaw in material on one unit.

Looking at the video, one or two bolts from the GC plate are contacting the base/table, maybe they are affecting the results. This test can be revealing of a design flaw if properly conducted.

[Hellabad]

As for the GC/Vorschlag plate test seen on the video, there's a lot of information missing.

Ask me or PM me if you have a question, and I will answer if I can.

And the protocol is pretty... strange.

I don't understand this, it seems clear to me, but I am on the inside looking in. Can you elaborate? PM that too if you want.

Jay

[Massive Lee]

Hmmm... If indeed some representants of Vorschlag publicly claimed they would copy any non-patented design from GC, then it shows very low ethic.

As for the GC/Vorschlag plate test seen on the video, there's a lot of information missing. And the protocole is pretty... strange. Jay, if the spherical bearing was rated at a milion tons and that the plated failed at 10% that value, it still remains proper.

Anyway, Jay, I welcome the new designs for your camber plates with the recessed bolts. Anything else never made sense as it clearly limited adjustments. I had drafts, two years ago, for recessed upper plates to replace your flat plates. In fact, nothing should portrude above the upper plate, except for the shock stem... It may add 1/4" stack height but it offers may more adjustment.

[whiltebeitel]

Yeah, I assumed most would pick up on that. I generally prefer to read whole threads as opposed to edited quotes, but I've tended to have more time to kill recently, so that is a factor.