how to make an e30 feel more "planted"

[davem]

kind of an odd type of thread to start, it seems that E30 suspension info is abundant in the proper subforum. Other than that, "planted" consists generally of a low center of gravity and a wide wheelbase/track.

kind of an odd reply given that the discussion that followed touched on more than just suspension

You should see this guy on our local forum 8-)

Dave you car is pretty sorted, at this point I'd think you benefit from wider wheels with a tad lower offset, and grippier tires. After that then you might be thinking about going for stiffer coils and dampers. H&R sports are pretty soft in comparison to alternatives.

I know my car is sorted brah, this is more about discussion than modding my car. I also know that H&R sports are soft, get back to your notes! :up:

An e36 steering rack will also help because the feeling of being "planted" also comes from the control and confidence you feel in your car, not just the physical attributes of the suspension.

interdasting, I still have that e36 rack sitting in storage

[iamsam]

kind of an odd reply given that the discussion that followed touched on more than just suspension

an odd reply for an odd thread! ;)

[devon.818]

lol i just went from driving a car that had NO CAB's to one with new offset m3 cabs and new control arms.

im not scared to drive anymore

[TurboJake]

lol i just went from driving a car that had NO CAB's to one with new offset m3 cabs and new control arms.

im not scared to drive anymore

I bought a car that had a roll of electrical tape stuck in the lollipop and drove it 100 miles home like that. Promptly parted it out afterwards.

Good times.

[nrubenstein]

"should not be any worse" is not exactly a glowing endorsement. I'm enjoying the Cabrio a lot but in it's current state it rides far too much like my stepdad's 67 Bonneville with a German twist and the front wheel arches offend me. Once I get it dialed in....TB, belts, hoses and seals sitting in a box waiting to be installed...flasher buzzing on right turns etc...then its on to upgrades. I'll probably take the 16" BBS RK's off the 318i, but the BS Sports & Prokits stay there (as they should).

There's logic to the H&R Sport Cabrio springs (vehicle specific) but until I cut the bump stops down on the BS Sports and see how the 318i rides then Im not sure I'd buy another set. I know I had Koni's on something (could have been the Alfa)...and always had a good feeling about them but in the end it's always a compromise.

Thats what makes coilovers an interesting option. Dial in height, spring rate and damping rather than having to swap out components. Choose your poison.

They are not inherently better. That is simply not true.

They give you more options, but they don't fundamentally alter the geometry of the suspension (which is the only real way that that they could be inherently better).

[Falconer]

Hey guys OP is notorious for being butthurt so lets take it slow with him 8-) <3

kind of an odd reply given that the discussion that followed touched on more than just suspension



I know my car is sorted brah, this is more about discussion than modding my car. I also know that H&R sports are soft, get back to your notes! :up:



interdasting, I still have that e36 rack sitting in storage

Dave what is the difference between being "planted" and "handling". Because from my chair here, it seems they are the same and the usual answers apply on how to improve it. Just wondering, don't get mad tho.

[BlackbirdM3]

I did install a set of the Tree House racing front control arm bushings and noticed a big difference. It was a much more positive feel at the wheel. I'm also running miles of caster. Still shifting gears mid corner with everything loaded up while really pushing it, doesn't upset the car. It feels awkward as all get out (I'd be exiting stage left in my track car if I tried that.) but the car doesn't move at all. Thats just running a set of Hankook RS3s in a 225. The E30 can produce plenty of grip and will feel very well planted if dialed in. I'm running -2.75 degrees camber (-3 would be better, I haven't adjusted it yet.) 0 toe, and 10.25 caster. TC Klein tuned Koni Sports, GC Spec E30 camber/caster plates, Racing Dynamics springs and stock anti-sway bars. The spring rate could be higher, but its pretty quick around an autoX course as is. In the rear I have a set of TC Klein Konis as well.

I've driven an E30 M3 with the GC coil over setup and it was the worst handling car I've driven in a long time. It was nervous and twitchy everywhere. The spring rate felt way too high, the damping was too low (it would porpoise mid corner to corner exit unless you were flawlessly smooth on the throttle) Pretty much it was terrible. Yes, it needed an alignment, but it needed other tuning as well. It was a night and day difference between my friends car and mine on the same set of on/off ramps. In my opinion, the only thing the cheap coil overs have going for them over standard springs and dampers is that you can corner balance the car, but I'd guess very few of you want to drive around in a car that sits lopsided all the time. Sure, you can lower the hell out of the car, but by doing that you have reduced your suspension travel to nil, and really screwed up the geometry of it. Unless you need remote reservoirs, with adjustable rebound and compression damping as well as fully adjustable ride height (the ability to go up as well as down) and you are willing to have them rebuilt every year, coil overs are a waste of $ especially since you don't have them in the rear anyway. (If you really need them, you will do the mods to allow the rears, and the car won't be driven on the street anyway.)

Just my $0.02,
Will

[davem]

Dave what is the difference between being "planted" and "handling". Because from my chair here, it seems they are the same and the usual answers apply on how to improve it. Just wondering, don't get mad tho.

Automobile handling and vehicle handling are descriptions of the way wheeled vehicles perform transverse to their direction of motion, particularly during cornering and swerving. It also includes their stability when moving in steady state condition.

my bad, i was more interested in the bolded definition, I never knew "handling" meant anything more than the first part.

[nrubenstein]

Hey guys OP is notorious for being butthurt so lets take it slow with him 8-) <3



Dave what is the difference between being "planted" and "handling". Because from my chair here, it seems they are the same and the usual answers apply on how to improve it. Just wondering, don't get mad tho.

Planted is a handling characteristic. A good handling car is not necessarily "planted."

[nrubenstein]

I did install a set of the Tree House racing front control arm bushings and noticed a big difference. It was a much more positive feel at the wheel. I'm also running miles of caster. Still shifting gears mid corner with everything loaded up while really pushing it, doesn't upset the car. It feels awkward as all get out (I'd be exiting stage left in my track car if I tried that.) but the car doesn't move at all. Thats just running a set of Hankook RS3s in a 225. The E30 can produce plenty of grip and will feel very well planted if dialed in. I'm running -2.75 degrees camber (-3 would be better, I haven't adjusted it yet.) 0 toe, and 10.25 caster. TC Klein tuned Koni Sports, GC Spec E30 camber/caster plates, Racing Dynamics springs and stock anti-sway bars. The spring rate could be higher, but its pretty quick around an autoX course as is. In the rear I have a set of TC Klein Konis as well.

I've driven an E30 M3 with the GC coil over setup and it was the worst handling car I've driven in a long time. It was nervous and twitchy everywhere. The spring rate felt way too high, the damping was too low (it would porpoise mid corner to corner exit unless you were flawlessly smooth on the throttle) Pretty much it was terrible. Yes, it needed an alignment, but it needed other tuning as well. It was a night and day difference between my friends car and mine on the same set of on/off ramps. In my opinion, the only thing the cheap coil overs have going for them over standard springs and dampers is that you can corner balance the car, but I'd guess very few of you want to drive around in a car that sits lopsided all the time. Sure, you can lower the hell out of the car, but by doing that you have reduced your suspension travel to nil, and really screwed up the geometry of it. Unless you need remote reservoirs, with adjustable rebound and compression damping as well as fully adjustable ride height (the ability to go up as well as down) and you are willing to have them rebuilt every year, coil overs are a waste of $ especially since you don't have them in the rear anyway. (If you really need them, you will do the mods to allow the rears, and the car won't be driven on the street anyway.)

Just my $0.02,
Will

This is, of course, the challenge with coilovers. They give you extra latitude to screw up your car.

That said, that's a case of someone setting up the car poorly. That has nothing to do with the coilovers per se.

[Falconer]

Planted is a handling characteristic. A good handling car is not necessarily "planted."

That seems like a cop out though. Someone define "planted"

For me it would be
A) the ability of a car to hook up with the road under WOT
B) carry momentum through a corner with maximum power delivery, a function partly of body roll

[Raxe]

Run 800lb coilovers and 245 tires.

[Swagg]

Buying an e30 with wonky control arms and tie rods and then replacing them is the best way to make an e30 feel more "planted".


.....or so ive heard?

[jeffnhiscars]

They are not inherently better. That is simply not true.

They give you more options, but they don't fundamentally alter the geometry of the suspension (which is the only real way that that they could be inherently better).

I said they were an "interesting option" not that they were inherently better. The jury is still out on whether they make sense to me at all and thats before I get to the question of whether they are worth the price of admission (which I seriously doubt in my case).

If I install shocks or springs and am not happy, most of that stuff is easily resold with a small discount (after writing off your labor as we all do). Call me old school, but coilovers dont really inspire me yet I'm eager to understand their mechanical & practical pros and cons better.

Like for most of us, this is a place to learn, explore & shoot the breeze...<as I pass nrubenstein a cyber beer>

[nrubenstein]

That seems like a cop out though. Someone define "planted"

For me it would be
A) the ability of a car to hook up with the road under WOT
B) carry momentum through a corner with maximum power delivery, a function partly of body roll

Uh, I was defining the difference between "handling" and "planted.". How is stating that they aren't the same thing a cop out?

Anyway, I'd argue that stability in a straight line down the highway is an important component of planted and also what the OP is asking about.