wich company lost its way? (jalopnik review)

[z31maniac]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

Excellent analysis bro.

[CrusherCurtis]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

[Wschnitz]

Still don't get why everyone hates on the 1M, it's a great car and I'll be buying one once i have a steady job.

[Charlie]

Of the cars you listed here, the lightweight E36, there are what 10 of them in all of North America, and only two in the US I think?

You'd think wrong, it was a US only model, they built about 125 of them. I remember them sitting on dealer lots for over a year.

Hardly worth a mention since its not even legal in the US. The M coupe is a penismobile, its ugly and I wouldn't be caught dead driving it or riding in one for that matter. The 318 Ti, again, poor styling. It looks like someone chopped the back of the car off. You wonder why it didn't sell? The Z4, same issue as the M coupe, it looks like a dick. The GTO, well, its big and heavy. Sure its got plenty of power, but its a boat. The CTS Wagon? Are you serious? It might as well be a Pontiac Aztek. There is a reason none of those sold well. Aside from the lightweight E36, the rest are all poorly styled and never should have been built. (Ok, the GTO isn't a bad looking car, but its not what I would call anything but a big Grand Touring car.)

Good job proving my point. Unique, hardcore "enthusiast" cars, and you just poo-pooed each and every one of them.

The MINI? Really? I'll call that a nice grocery getter and that's about it. There is nothing mini about it. Should be called the MAXI. Its front wheel drive, who cares about it. I've driven one, and was entirely unimpressed with it. It drove like a typical FWD.

It's 2600 lbs and smaller than just about anything else on the road today save for a smart car or IQ. Having driven them on track, as well as having one as the wife's DD, it's hard to beat for its 23k price tag. I'd rock one as a track toy any day. If you think it drives like a "typical" FWD, you probably haven't driven much in anger.

No, BMW isn't catering to people making minimum wage. No manufacturer is so its a mute point.

"Mute" point? Seriously bro?

They are catering to the upper class however, just as they always have. Still, if I were making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, they still don't have anything I would spend my money on. I would likely look at an Exage, Porsche GT3RS, or, well, screw it, an Ultima GTR.

Once again, "not our fucking demo".

I'm not really sure I see the crossover between the 60k 4 seat E92 M3 and your choices of the 75k 2 seat Exige which has been out of production since 2011, which, as a DD would be somewhat iffy. For the record, I've driven exiges and elises, and I'm 5'6, ~145, they're a tiny car for me. If you're close to 6 foot, those cars would be a royal PITA on a regular basis

Nor the $175k Porsche GT3 RS or the $150k Kit car Ultima GTR.

Again, not sure I understand the point of your comparison of boutique sports cars to BMW's lineup. They've never built "hardcore" boutique stuff, even the vaunted E30 M3 was jeered at as overweight and overgadgeted in the 80's by the hardcore BMW guys, I mean, it was 2850 lbs!

There really is nothing on the market that I want to buy. Honestly as far as warranties go, I've never owned a car with one so I can't say I care. I do expect things that shouldn't wear out or break, to last. I don't want computer controlled this or that, I don't want a navigation system, I don't want a back up camera (I want the trunk line to be low enough for me to turn and look as I back up the way people should be taught to.) Seriously, I don't give a rats ass about airbags, power windows, moon-roofs, give me a set of race harnesses and a cage. I'll show up to a business meeting in a suit in a car with a roll cage and race seats and harnesses. No big deal.

Just buy a bike.

It's the year 2013 and we live in an era of mandated government safety standards. Airbags have been "a thing" for 25 years.

I realize no company is going to cater to what I want. The Lotus and GT3 RS are likely the closest I can get. It would be nice to see companies go back to simple, well styled, performance based cars that are produced in low numbers for the performance enthusiast.

I listed a number of cars that were exactly like that, you crapped on all of them. People like you are exactly the reasons that car companies don't give two shits about "enthusiasts".

The 1M is almost there, but the styling is funky, its too tall, and the proportions are all wrong. The power is there, it just needs a restyle and a diet. That car should be no heavier than an E30 M3 and with today's tech, it should be no more than 2800lbs The size is right, but the styling is off and the weight is too high.

http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/

There ya go, the closest thing you're going to get to a modern e30 M3.

Get back to basics. Heck at the very least offer the option to add or subtract everything on the car. Offer thinner window glass, no a/c, no power windows, no electronic crap other than the engine management system.

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-m3-gt4.html

175k, There ya go, pony up.

Sure it will be a custom built car, but one that is custom built with off the shelf parts. Put the //M back in the M.

See, here's what I don't get. What does that mean? The M cars have always been loaded and optioned up. The E28 M5 was loaded up, as was the M6, the E30 M3 had heated seats, extra leather, power everything and tons of sound deadening. Hell, even the '02s weren't light compared to their contemporaries. The big coupes were downright pigs.

-Charlie

[BlackbirdM3]

Which part of "not our fucking demo" do R3V kiddies not get?

BMW does not care about kids making 8/hr and driving 25 year old cars. You don't buy cars. It's a simple as that. BMW builds larger, softer and heavier luxo-boxes because their primary demographic (women), want them. The X1 sells huge, the X3 moves markets, the Countryman sells well, China loves the 550gt. BMW is a for-profit company, they like money, and as such, produce products that their customers want.

Enthusiasts sit behind their keyboards and bitch up a storm, but when it comes to whipping out their wallet, they shrivel back into their pants and walk away. The E36 M3 LTW? flopped. The E36/7 M coupes? Flopped. The lightweight, fun and tossable e36 318ti compact? Flopped. The E86 Z4 & M coupes? They couldn't give those things away. The Pontiac GTO, the car everyone clamored for? Flopped. The CTS-Wagon that all the internet jizzed on, rotted on the lot. The new Toyo-barus? Go listen to kiddies on the internet bitch that they're "too expensive" at 25k and don't have 400 hp.

Once again, "enthusiasts" have proven they don't buy cars. Hence, the automakers don't give a shit.

You want a lightweight, enthusiast focused BMW with a warranty? They've got you covered. They just stick a British flag on it and call it a MINI. Go pick up a JCW Coupe. They're badass cars.

That, or, you know, just buy a bike. BMW makes some awesome ones.

-Charlie

Of the cars you listed here, the lightweight E36, there are what 10 of them in all of North America, and only two in the US I think? Hardly worth a mention since its not even legal in the US. The M coupe is a penismobile, its ugly and I wouldn't be caught dead driving it or riding in one for that matter. The 318 Ti, again, poor styling. It looks like someone chopped the back of the car off. You wonder why it didn't sell? The Z4, same issue as the M coupe, it looks like a dick. The GTO, well, its big and heavy. Sure its got plenty of power, but its a boat. The CTS Wagon? Are you serious? It might as well be a Pontiac Aztek. There is a reason none of those sold well. Aside from the lightweight E36, the rest are all poorly styled and never should have been built. (Ok, the GTO isn't a bad looking car, but its not what I would call anything but a big Grand Touring car.)

The MINI? Really? I'll call that a nice grocery getter and that's about it. There is nothing mini about it. Should be called the MAXI. Its front wheel drive, who cares about it. I've driven one, and was entirely unimpressed with it. It drove like a typical FWD.

No, BMW isn't catering to people making minimum wage. No manufacturer is so its a mute point. They are catering to the upper class however, just as they always have. Still, if I were making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, they still don't have anything I would spend my money on. I would likely look at an Exage, Porsche GT3RS, or, well, screw it, an Ultima GTR. There really is nothing on the market that I want to buy. Honestly as far as warranties go, I've never owned a car with one so I can't say I care. I do expect things that shouldn't wear out or break, to last. I don't want computer controlled this or that, I don't want a navigation system, I don't want a back up camera (I want the trunk line to be low enough for me to turn and look as I back up the way people should be taught to.) Seriously, I don't give a rats ass about airbags, power windows, moon-roofs, give me a set of race harnesses and a cage. I'll show up to a business meeting in a suit in a car with a roll cage and race seats and harnesses. No big deal.

I realize no company is going to cater to what I want. The Lotus and GT3 RS are likely the closest I can get. It would be nice to see companies go back to simple, well styled, performance based cars that are produced in low numbers for the performance enthusiast. The 1M is almost there, but the styling is funky, its too tall, and the proportions are all wrong. The power is there, it just needs a restyle and a diet. That car should be no heavier than an E30 M3 and with today's tech, it should be no more than 2800lbs The size is right, but the styling is off and the weight is too high. Get back to basics. Heck at the very least offer the option to add or subtract everything on the car. Offer thinner window glass, no a/c, no power windows, no electronic crap other than the engine management system. Sure it will be a custom built car, but one that is custom built with off the shelf parts. Put the //M back in the M.

Will

[oliver.r]

young money sells
crap cars sell...
hmmmmm whats going on america!

[obes]

I don't think it's so much that BMW has lost it's way. More that their cars have evolved as tech and safety standards have progressed. Your trying to compare a 25yr old car to a new one. When e30's were new they seen the same way the new models are. Sure everyone had the same thought's when they moved from 02's to e21's. Just weren't forums for people to cry about it. The quality of the cars hasn't really changed, just the tech they put in them. They've evolved.

BMW still makes cars for the enthusiast. They always have. That's what the M models have always been. Back in the day if you wanted a "enthusiast" e30, you bought the m3. Same as today. Standard e30's were always the luxury/sporty cars, same as the e36's and so on. But the technology has changed is all.

You wanna talk about companies that lost their way look at the crap the big 3 us makers have pumped out for years and still wanted a premium for (specially chysler). Those companies used to stand for a quality product at a reasonable price, then just started pumping out pure crap hoping that no one would notice. BMW has never really done that, sacrificing quality for pure profit. So I don't really see a "lost their way" deal, just a natural progression.

:up:

[mikeedler]

^ this +1

Think now, the E30 M3 was aFULLY optioned out car back then too. things change over time.

[sumoashe]

I don't think it's so much that BMW has lost it's way. More that their cars have evolved as tech and safety standards have progressed. Your trying to compare a 25yr old car to a new one. When e30's were new they seen the same way the new models are. Sure everyone had the same thought's when they moved from 02's to e21's. Just weren't forums for people to cry about it. The quality of the cars hasn't really changed, just the tech they put in them. They've evolved.

BMW still makes cars for the enthusiast. They always have. That's what the M models have always been. Back in the day if you wanted a "enthusiast" e30, you bought the m3. Same as today. Standard e30's were always the luxury/sporty cars, same as the e36's and so on. But the technology has changed is all.

You wanna talk about companies that lost their way look at the crap the big 3 us makers have pumped out for years and still wanted a premium for (specially chysler). Those companies used to stand for a quality product at a reasonable price, then just started pumping out pure crap hoping that no one would notice. BMW has never really done that, sacrificing quality for pure profit. So I don't really see a "lost their way" deal, just a natural progression.

[enigmaticdream]

Thank you!

Finally a coherent thought in this thread.

I own an e30 M3, a 92 Mtech II cab, and a 2012 328i xdrive touring.
The M3 is only worth driving hard, on a TRACK, anywhere else it's..........a 25 year old car in a world of minivans. The cab is useless on anything other than a sunny day.
The 2012 I can drive anytime, anywhere, quicker and in more comfort than either cars, anywhere other than a race track. If I could only have one car, it would be the 2012.

I'll agree with you on the e30 M3. I've been driving it for the past two months since my other cars were out of commission. It is absolutely boring under 4k. Just a crappy 4 banger. It is awesome when revving it out, but you have to wait 15+ minutes to get the oil up to temp. For me, I'm just pulling into work when I can final give it a little pull toward the upper rpms. However, I must say you don't HAVE to track the car to get the most out of it. Compared to the e46 M3 you can have a lot of fun without getting into cuff territory.

Although slightly different than your cab, my 325is is a great DD. Nice low end torque with plenty of upper end power to pass, etc. Plenty of visibility which is good from keeping your ass out of getting in accidents.

Comparing my e46 M3 and e30 325is as a DD I would go with the 325is. Better visibility, more comfortable, better overall sensory awareness, and being smaller it is easier to squeeze through tight spaces (right hand turns at lights for example).

[obes]

Which part of "not our fucking demo" do R3V kiddies not get?

BMW does not care about kids making 8/hr and driving 25 year old cars. You don't buy cars. It's a simple as that. BMW builds larger, softer and heavier luxo-boxes because their primary demographic (women), want them. The X1 sells huge, the X3 moves markets, the Countryman sells well, China loves the 550gt. BMW is a for-profit company, they like money, and as such, produce products that their customers want.

Enthusiasts sit behind their keyboards and bitch up a storm, but when it comes to whipping out their wallet, they shrivel back into their pants and walk away. The E36 M3 LTW? flopped. The E36/7 M coupes? Flopped. The lightweight, fun and tossable e36 318ti compact? Flopped. The E86 Z4 & M coupes? They couldn't give those things away. The Pontiac GTO, the car everyone clamored for? Flopped. The CTS-Wagon that all the internet jizzed on, rotted on the lot. The new Toyo-barus? Go listen to kiddies on the internet bitch that they're "too expensive" at 25k and don't have 400 hp.

Once again, "enthusiasts" have proven they don't buy cars. Hence, the automakers don't give a shit.

You want a lightweight, enthusiast focused BMW with a warranty? They've got you covered. They just stick a British flag on it and call it a MINI. Go pick up a JCW Coupe. They're badass cars.

That, or, you know, just buy a bike. BMW makes some awesome ones.

-Charlie

haha..i was waiting for someone to say all of this

i couldn't agree more

its funny how everyone complains.." oooo BMW has lost its way" ... quite frankly BMW/automakers can give a rats ass ..the cars now are awesome..fit for daily use. a lot of r3v kids can barely even afford an e30..so who cares what BMW cars are being produced lol

[Vtec?lol]

Lol the CEOs and shit at BMW should read this thread.

Also, I would have to to say the e60 M5 was the last enthusiast car. Even with its shorty electronics and over complicated interior, it's amazing power plant makes up for all if it. The way it puts its power down through a tight 6spd is amazing. A lightweight high revving 5 liter v10 that just sings when it moves. All that motor through a 6spd manual? Fucking yes please. Even the SMG was an awesome experience. I'd honestly prefer the SMG so I can drive my car everyday. Idk, that car is an all around winner. Groceries? Sure. Room for 5? Easy! Road trips? Comforting. God they are amazing cars

E46 m3? Nah. Euro e36 m3s run circles around those boats.

[ohthejosh]

Which part of "not our fucking demo" do R3V kiddies not get?

BMW does not care about kids making 8/hr and driving 25 year old cars. You don't buy cars. It's a simple as that. BMW builds larger, softer and heavier luxo-boxes because their primary demographic (women), want them. The X1 sells huge, the X3 moves markets, the Countryman sells well, China loves the 550gt. BMW is a for-profit company, they like money, and as such, produce products that their customers want.

Enthusiasts sit behind their keyboards and bitch up a storm, but when it comes to whipping out their wallet, they shrivel back into their pants and walk away. The E36 M3 LTW? flopped. The E36/7 M coupes? Flopped. The lightweight, fun and tossable e36 318ti compact? Flopped. The E86 Z4 & M coupes? They couldn't give those things away. The Pontiac GTO, the car everyone clamored for? Flopped. The CTS-Wagon that all the internet jizzed on, rotted on the lot. The new Toyo-barus? Go listen to kiddies on the internet bitch that they're "too expensive" at 25k and don't have 400 hp.

Once again, "enthusiasts" have proven they don't buy cars. Hence, the automakers don't give a shit.

You want a lightweight, enthusiast focused BMW with a warranty? They've got you covered. They just stick a British flag on it and call it a MINI. Go pick up a JCW Coupe. They're badass cars.

That, or, you know, just buy a bike. BMW makes some awesome ones.

-Charlie

You talk as if absolutely nobody on this forums realizes what you explained. The entire point of this thread and article was created from the point of a car enthusiast not the main demo graphic. As enthusiasts we would love to see a better range of quality performance cars from a quality performance car manufacturer.

Will we get what we want? Of course not and we ALL know this. We are just upset at the fact that the beloved brand is becoming a shell of what it used to be. I still buy their new cars, they are still great but not what they use to be. Its all cluttered with gizmos and electronics and take away from the performance engineering that I personally enjoy. All the luxury and comfort options are awesome for an everyday driver but the balance between luxury and performance has been permanently tipped in favor of luxury which is what most are unhappy about on this board.

[Massimo]

Which part of "not our fucking demo" do R3V kiddies not get?

BMW does not care about kids making 8/hr and driving 25 year old cars. You don't buy cars. It's a simple as that. BMW builds larger, softer and heavier luxo-boxes because their primary demographic (women), want them. The X1 sells huge, the X3 moves markets, the Countryman sells well, China loves the 550gt. BMW is a for-profit company, they like money, and as such, produce products that their customers want.

Enthusiasts sit behind their keyboards and bitch up a storm, but when it comes to whipping out their wallet, they shrivel back into their pants and walk away. The E36 M3 LTW? flopped. The E36/7 M coupes? Flopped. The lightweight, fun and tossable e36 318ti compact? Flopped. The E86 Z4 & M coupes? They couldn't give those things away. The Pontiac GTO, the car everyone clamored for? Flopped. The CTS-Wagon that all the internet jizzed on, rotted on the lot. The new Toyo-barus? Go listen to kiddies on the internet bitch that they're "too expensive" at 25k and don't have 400 hp.

Once again, "enthusiasts" have proven they don't buy cars. Hence, the automakers don't give a shit.

You want a lightweight, enthusiast focused BMW with a warranty? They've got you covered. They just stick a British flag on it and call it a MINI. Go pick up a JCW Coupe. They're badass cars.

That, or, you know, just buy a bike. BMW makes some awesome ones.

-Charlie

Well it is more likely that it is the share holders who want to see a bigger and bigger returns every quarter, it may not be what BMW wants but it is what it has to do.

[Massimo]

I agree with the fwd and 4 series comments. What the fuck is an m4

the M4 is what the M6 grand coupe is to the M5