wich company lost its way? (jalopnik review)

[CrusherCurtis]

Excellent analysis bro.

I didn't thing what I said needed to be explained by anyway.

"The problem with the auto industry is everyone wants to be BMW" Richard Hammond

Fact. Companies have sold they're souls to make the ultimate driving machine. the best example is Cadillac. They've completely sold out and changed what Cadillac was for 100 years in just 10. Infiniti launches an ipl line and Lexus f sport. Even now, Mercedes that are supposed to be comfortable cruisers are now given athletic qualities. Audi even when so far as to name every competing model one number high than BMW (thing about it). VW's goal with Audi was to take BMW's spot and there doing a damn good job. What really pisses me off is that BMW doesn't even care and it shows when Audi makes a car with a world class leading interior + AWD and its still some how lighter than the comparable RWD BMW!! WTF!! And it gets worst. There's no more Z3 , Z4, m coupes, or Z8's etc. Literally while the competition developed LFA, SLS, and R8, BMW developed 5 series GT, then they followed the crowd and made a 4 door 6 series. The new m5 is the farthest thing from what BMW used to stand for just 10 years ago. Purist spare yourself this next line: Its a BIG 4300 pound Twin Turbo sedan, a far cry from an e39 m5. Sure everyone will want one because its fast, but this is a car everyone makes now. Even Infiniti is working on one now. When the e39 m5 came out it was slap in face of the auto industry, when the Z8 came out it was faster than, a then young, Gallarado around a track. If you think BMW hasn't lost its way your sadly mistaken.

Edit: Oh yeah /Thread

[Todd Black 88]

There were 44 lightweight E36s brought to North America courtesy of a mister Tom Plucinsky of BMW Canada. One of these was never sold.

As for the US version of the E30 M3, yeah it came fully optioned, however the euro models lacked things like power windows, sunroof, A/c, stereo, non reclining seats and others. The weight was 2569Lbs. The Sport EVO was 2650 lbs giving it a power to weight ratio of a hair over 11 per hp. Exactly the car I'd be looking to buy right now. Yes the US version is a fat pig since it grew an extra 300 or so pounds. I'm currently looking into pulling the power windows out of my car because they are unneeded and more of a pain than they are worth. I'll happily take the weight savings. The A/C system is also on the chopping block, it doesn't work, so I might as well pull it all out. I just haven't figured out why it doesn't work. If it needs a new compressor, the whole nine yards is coming out. I've never owned a car with a a/c in the past so it doesn't really bother me that I wouldn't have one in the M3.

The MINI is small by todays standards, but its huge. Hell, my M3 is huge. I'd rather drive a real MINI over the BMW variation any day of the week. A real MINI is small. Yes, I've autoXed a modern MINI and it was a horrible understeering pig of a car, just like all FWD cars. The thing would not turn at neutral throttle, let alone on throttle. Like I said, it might be ok for a grocery getter.

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage and I'm 6'2 and 190lbs. Hell, I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage. She also autocrosses it all the time as well. If a nearly 80 year old woman can daily drive one, anyone can.

As for poo-pooing the "enthusiast" based cars, if they looked good, I'd give them a shot. Heck, I'd be interested in a lightweight e36 M3, but since there aren't any that are legal in the US, its not happening. The 1M isn't a bad looking car, its sides are just too tall, the windows too small and the trunk is too short. Its just not visually that attractive. Its almost there, but it has too many "extras" that I don't want as well.

The Toyo-buru thing looks like crap, and is unimpressive. I've been racing against them for months and wouldn't you know it, my mostly stock 25 year old M3 has yet to be beaten by one even when I'm on street tires and they are on R-compounds. I give them credit for trying to make something cool, but they clearly can't design a good looking car (it looks like a toad.) Its cheaply built and designed to be thrashed and thrown away. A total waste of $ if you ask me.

The only point I'm trying to make is that manufacturers have all lost their way. As people have already mentioned, the Exage is gone, the GT3 is gone (at least in the US) They are just building people movers, packing them with "stuff" based around the "Planned obsolescence" idea so it will fall apart and they can sell you new parts for a stupid amount of money. After a year or two of replacing expensive stupid parts that should last 20 + years, you sell the thing and buy another poorly built POS that will do the same thing just after the very short warranty runs out. Its not about building a quality car that lasts, its about making as much money as they can because they built their stuff to be thrown out.

Will

No, just......no
You are talking about the Canada only 94 e36 m3. These were 286hp euro spec cars.
The us e36 m3 ltw had approximately 125 cars made, of which 118 were believed to have been registered.

[BlackbirdM3]

I completely agree the cars have become smarter while the drivers have become dumber. But this not the fault of the auto makers, its what the public has asked for. Mainly us lazy americans. We treat cars as a neccesity instead of the luxury they are. There just another tool to us. We want them to do everything for us cause we're to busy doing a dozen other things than actually driving. Where as in the rest of the world cars are a luxury ítem. You gotta really want one to pay all the extra cash and jump threw all the hoops it takes to get one. So when they drive they do so out of choice versus that just being how you get around.

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance. It's our thirst for cars and giant economy that has changed the path of auto makers. Even the really crappy stuff is on us because as americans we would rather put up with a shitty made car than not have a car at all.

I whole heatedly agree. In the US driving is viewed as a right rather than a privilege. Perhaps I should pick up and move to Europe. I'd probably fit in better. ;)

Will

[obes]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

haha beg to differ..its a beast. stick to your slow e30 lol

[Stanley Rockafella]

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance.

It was actually against the law in Europe to install anything that would distract from driving. Not so much of an "experience" thing per se

[sumoashe]

Automakers give us exactly what we ask for as a whole. Not what a small segment asks for.

[sumoashe]

I completely agree the cars have become smarter while the drivers have become dumber. But this not the fault of the auto makers, its what the public has asked for. Mainly us lazy americans. We treat cars as a neccesity instead of the luxury they are. There just another tool to us. We want them to do everything for us cause we're to busy doing a dozen other things than actually driving. Where as in the rest of the world cars are a luxury ítem. You gotta really want one to pay all the extra cash and jump threw all the hoops it takes to get one. So when they drive they do so out of choice versus that just being how you get around.

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance. It's our thirst for cars and giant economy that has changed the path of auto makers. Even the really crappy stuff is on us because as americans we would rather put up with a shitty made car than not have a car at all.

[BlackbirdM3]

I'm sorry to be a prick, but this is pissing me off; what the fuck is an EXAGE. I do fancy the Lotus Exige, it's quite the sports car. But I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. If you're going to post as a well informed contributor, at least spell the damn name right.

Oops, yeah I misspelled Exige. Ya got me, congratulations.

I'm not saying they should cater to my interests in a car. I'm just saying that few companies do. Lotus is one of them. I didn't like the early Elise, my big feet had no place to go, it also lacked an LSD and had a very vague feel at the wheel. The last generation ones are sweet. I wish more companies would follow their example. I will say I'm not interested in the Evora. The Exige S however fits the bill.

Yes the E30 M3 was never designed to sell millions. It was a purpose built car, and that is exactly why I like it and the reason I own one. When I bought it I could have paid cash for some pretty impressive cars, Porsche 993s, S2000s, an Elise, but no, I went for a 25 year old purpose built detuned race car. After putting 18K miles on it in the past year, all I can say is that its brilliant. Sure, there are a few things I don't like about it, but its all stuff the European versions don't have. No, its not a car for the masses. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to see more cars of this nature.

My other issue that is more or less universal with anything made in the past 10 years, you can't see out the back of the things. Bring back the large rear window and low trunk line. Everything these days has a trunkline that is so high you can't see crap through the rear window. Sure I can see the lifted monster truck that is tailgating me, but the Honda Civic driven by the twit on the phone doesn't sit tall enough to see. Anyone else see an issue with this? I see manufacturers making cars that do everything short of driving themselves (they already parallel park by themselves so its not far off ) This has caused the drivers to be inattentive and clueless relying on the car to get them out of trouble rather than being smart and careful as they should be. People are lazy and will do as little as possible. The so called safety standards are nothing more than a method of creating worse drivers. :down:

I'm done with this rant. You guys have at it.

Will

[sumoashe]

I think the issue thats happening here is there's more than one argument going on here. Well actually these. Form vs function, and also companies being compares to each other that shouldn't be.

Form, (styling, design). Form is subjective, people like different things. You can only judge this against bmw's past models, not another company. Also cant judge form bases on performance or options.

Function, this you can judge against other makers cars. But you have to use equal or as close to equal cars as you can. Cant judge a standard e46 m3 against a porsche gt3 rs. Two completely different animals meant for two different purposes. But you could use the m3 csl against the gt3 rs. Those are similar cars meant for the same purpose. Function is numbers and data, it's facts not judgement.

The third one here seems to be the worst. You cannot judge bmw against porsche or lotus based on the type of car they make. They are not competing for the same customer base for the most part. So do not make the same types of cars. Bmw competes with lexus, mercedes, audi, ect. All makers of sporty executive luxury cars. They just happen to like to race as well, and selling luxury cars lets them do that. Porsche and Lotus make race cars that happen to work well on the road as well and allow the funding of their race program.

And Lotus us more like a morgan, tvr, panoz. Not a porsche size company.

[canakami]

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage ....I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage....the Exage is gone

I'm sorry to be a prick, but this is pissing me off; what the fuck is an EXAGE. I do fancy the Lotus Exige, it's quite the sports car. But I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. If you're going to post as a well informed contributor, at least spell the damn name right.

Moving on:

While I (an enthusiast) do lament the increase in weight and gravitation from small, light[er]weight cars; BMW is first and foremost a business. They're in the business of selling cars and making a profit, and their design and engineering trends follow the big money, not empty pocketed niche markets.

I agree with what someone above said about BMW's in general never having been the lightest of vehicles. While BMW may have kept weight in mind, they never went so far as to compromise luxury for the sake of vehicle dynamics, quite the opposite. If one looked to the M5, the M5 was never lauded for being a lightweight sports saloon, but rather one that looked handsome, had a plethora of amenities, and still went like the wind. The current car (stylistic grievances aside) still follows the same line. Yes, it is a two ton behemoth, but like the M5s that preceded it, it is an executive saloon with appreciable opulence, appreciable handling, and inappropriate speed.

Moving to the M3; the lovely box flared homologation special E30 that brings many of us together was not meant to last. BMW didn't even intend to build many of them, just enough to be legal for use in Group A and Group N racing. It just so happened that people kept buying the damn thing. Don't forget however, the street car was jammed with luxury bits making it weight damn near as much as the 4dr 190e Cossie. They toned down the "racecar for the street" bit further for the E36, but people kept buying them. Same with the E46, same with the E90.

I used to think differently, but I no longer believe that BMW has "lost it's way," but rather, we enthusiasts have chosen a particular point in history to judge all other products by. They, like all other successful companies, have continued to change their product and mantras based on what is likely to keep them profitable. Insinuating you would immediately go out and buy a brand new $60,000 car (which, is roughly what the E30 M3 was when new, after inflation) if only it catered to your minimalist taste is ridiculous.

/endrant

If it wasn't obvious, everything above is just an opinion adding to the debate, nothing personal.

[sumoashe]

Putting blame on the company is misses placed. The blame falls on us. Every time they build a car to try and meet the enthusiast market instead of you guys buying it you sit around and bitch about the little things.

This isn't McDonald's, if you don't like a particular part or aspect then it's up to you to change it. The whole I love everything but the power windows so i'm not gonna buy it excuse doesn't fly. And comparing bmw to Lotus is retarded. Lotus only builds enthusiast cars, bmw has to build cars for everyone while also being nice enough to even bother building enthusiast cars that none of you buy anyways.

The fact that they even still build M cars is amazing, cause they sure as hell don't keep the doors open from the few that sell. So instead of bitching you should be thanking them for still bothering to develop and put these things out. They give you the canvas, its up to you to finish the painting the way you like.

[MattBimmer]

the 4 series really made me go " thats it! what the fuck!"

This! And my grandparents own a new gen X5 and the wipers are BMW specific that cost 83 dollars. Like why do they continue to make them so freaking exclusive that even after they are 10 years old and have 100k they are still under affordable. I am globe coming less of a BMW enthusiast in the past few years because they look great their motors seem good but its like a giant rolling computer! There's no need for that, that's is what is awesome about the 1 n coupe it's a little more of a drives car than a computer on wheels

[BlackbirdM3]

There were 44 lightweight E36s brought to North America courtesy of a mister Tom Plucinsky of BMW Canada. One of these was never sold.

As for the US version of the E30 M3, yeah it came fully optioned, however the euro models lacked things like power windows, sunroof, A/c, stereo, non reclining seats and others. The weight was 2569Lbs. The Sport EVO was 2650 lbs giving it a power to weight ratio of a hair over 11 per hp. Exactly the car I'd be looking to buy right now. Yes the US version is a fat pig since it grew an extra 300 or so pounds. I'm currently looking into pulling the power windows out of my car because they are unneeded and more of a pain than they are worth. I'll happily take the weight savings. The A/C system is also on the chopping block, it doesn't work, so I might as well pull it all out. I just haven't figured out why it doesn't work. If it needs a new compressor, the whole nine yards is coming out. I've never owned a car with a a/c in the past so it doesn't really bother me that I wouldn't have one in the M3.

The MINI is small by todays standards, but its huge. Hell, my M3 is huge. I'd rather drive a real MINI over the BMW variation any day of the week. A real MINI is small. Yes, I've autoXed a modern MINI and it was a horrible understeering pig of a car, just like all FWD cars. The thing would not turn at neutral throttle, let alone on throttle. Like I said, it might be ok for a grocery getter.

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage and I'm 6'2 and 190lbs. Hell, I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage. She also autocrosses it all the time as well. If a nearly 80 year old woman can daily drive one, anyone can.

As for poo-pooing the "enthusiast" based cars, if they looked good, I'd give them a shot. Heck, I'd be interested in a lightweight e36 M3, but since there aren't any that are legal in the US, its not happening. The 1M isn't a bad looking car, its sides are just too tall, the windows too small and the trunk is too short. Its just not visually that attractive. Its almost there, but it has too many "extras" that I don't want as well.

The Toyo-buru thing looks like crap, and is unimpressive. I've been racing against them for months and wouldn't you know it, my mostly stock 25 year old M3 has yet to be beaten by one even when I'm on street tires and they are on R-compounds. I give them credit for trying to make something cool, but they clearly can't design a good looking car (it looks like a toad.) Its cheaply built and designed to be thrashed and thrown away. A total waste of $ if you ask me.

The only point I'm trying to make is that manufacturers have all lost their way. As people have already mentioned, the Exage is gone, the GT3 is gone (at least in the US) They are just building people movers, packing them with "stuff" based around the "Planned obsolescence" idea so it will fall apart and they can sell you new parts for a stupid amount of money. After a year or two of replacing expensive stupid parts that should last 20 + years, you sell the thing and buy another poorly built POS that will do the same thing just after the very short warranty runs out. Its not about building a quality car that lasts, its about making as much money as they can because they built their stuff to be thrown out.

Will

[mulletman]

You'd think wrong, it was a US only model, they built about 125 of them. I remember them sitting on dealer lots for over a year.

It sold poorly because they did a piss-poor job of making a 'hardcore' version. The only reason people want them now is because they're rare. It was what, 125 lbs lighter than the standard car? And cost how much more? The cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense. Now if it was 400 lbs lighter, I bet they would have sold much quicker.

Good job proving my point. Unique, hardcore "enthusiast" cars, and you just poo-pooed each and every one of them.

You cannot be serious. The GTO, a 'unique, hardcore "enthusiast" car?' The thing was a damn re-badged Holden, which was basically a Corvette drivetrain under a bloated and shitty chassis. I recall a magazine calling the handing "sofa-like." Throw in absolute SHIT gearing that made the car go faster in 5th than 6th, and you have a car that nobody wants.

And the 318Ti? Right. Okay. Let's take the least powerful of our cars, chop the back off, and give it the rear suspension from the LAST generation of our cars, and expect it to thrive as an 'enthusiast' car! Great idea! That's bullshit, and you know it. He poo-pooed them because you provided poor examples. How many '04 STi's were left on the lot? Those came with no stereo. How about the Evo RS? The one with no A/C, and hand cranked windows? People snatched those up so fast it made Mitsubishi's head spin.

I listed a number of cars that were exactly like that, you crapped on all of them. People like you are exactly the reasons that car companies don't give two shits about "enthusiasts".

No, you listed a number of cars that started out good, but ended up compromised. Either by price, weight, something.

I'd argue that the reason no one has made a good-selling enthusiast car, is that they haven't gone far enough. Everything brought to market is watered down from the concept. The Elise/Exige platform was the only one in recent memory that wasn't.... and what was the result? Released in 2005, the car immediately had about a 4-year waiting list. It continued un-changed until 6 years later, when everyone who wanted one and could afford it had bought one. Cars don't last forever. 6 years is a long fucking run, especially for a car that had no updates other than a couple of boosted models and some cosmetic changes.

http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/

There ya go, the closest thing you're going to get to a modern e30 M3.

Exactly. And I know multiple enthusiasts who are planning to buy that car as their next vehicle.

It's kind of hard to make a lightweight car when the gov't mandates you have 37 airbags and a 6ft. crumple zone.

BMW still makes enthusiast cars. Compare a BMW to things offered by other car companies.

Stop with the safety nonsense.... multiple cars have been made small and light in the last 10 years. If they wanted to, they could do it.

And compare a BMW to other enthusiast cars? Like an Evo IX RS, an early STi, or an Elise/Exige? At the same price point, BMW is being generous if they give you a limited slip diff anymore.

[325ix]

It's kind of hard to make a lightweight car when the gov't mandates you have 37 airbags and a 6ft. crumple zone.

BMW still makes enthusiast cars. Compare a BMW to things offered by other car companies.