wich company lost its way? (jalopnik review)

[sumoashe]

I don't think it's so much that BMW has lost it's way. More that their cars have evolved as tech and safety standards have progressed. Your trying to compare a 25yr old car to a new one. When e30's were new they seen the same way the new models are. Sure everyone had the same thought's when they moved from 02's to e21's. Just weren't forums for people to cry about it. The quality of the cars hasn't really changed, just the tech they put in them. They've evolved.

BMW still makes cars for the enthusiast. They always have. That's what the M models have always been. Back in the day if you wanted a "enthusiast" e30, you bought the m3. Same as today. Standard e30's were always the luxury/sporty cars, same as the e36's and so on. But the technology has changed is all.

You wanna talk about companies that lost their way look at the crap the big 3 us makers have pumped out for years and still wanted a premium for (specially chysler). Those companies used to stand for a quality product at a reasonable price, then just started pumping out pure crap hoping that no one would notice. BMW has never really done that, sacrificing quality for pure profit. So I don't really see a "lost their way" deal, just a natural progression.

[mikeedler]

^ this +1

Think now, the E30 M3 was aFULLY optioned out car back then too. things change over time.

[obes]

I don't think it's so much that BMW has lost it's way. More that their cars have evolved as tech and safety standards have progressed. Your trying to compare a 25yr old car to a new one. When e30's were new they seen the same way the new models are. Sure everyone had the same thought's when they moved from 02's to e21's. Just weren't forums for people to cry about it. The quality of the cars hasn't really changed, just the tech they put in them. They've evolved.

BMW still makes cars for the enthusiast. They always have. That's what the M models have always been. Back in the day if you wanted a "enthusiast" e30, you bought the m3. Same as today. Standard e30's were always the luxury/sporty cars, same as the e36's and so on. But the technology has changed is all.

You wanna talk about companies that lost their way look at the crap the big 3 us makers have pumped out for years and still wanted a premium for (specially chysler). Those companies used to stand for a quality product at a reasonable price, then just started pumping out pure crap hoping that no one would notice. BMW has never really done that, sacrificing quality for pure profit. So I don't really see a "lost their way" deal, just a natural progression.

:up:

[oliver.r]

young money sells
crap cars sell...
hmmmmm whats going on america!

[BlackbirdM3]

Which part of "not our fucking demo" do R3V kiddies not get?

BMW does not care about kids making 8/hr and driving 25 year old cars. You don't buy cars. It's a simple as that. BMW builds larger, softer and heavier luxo-boxes because their primary demographic (women), want them. The X1 sells huge, the X3 moves markets, the Countryman sells well, China loves the 550gt. BMW is a for-profit company, they like money, and as such, produce products that their customers want.

Enthusiasts sit behind their keyboards and bitch up a storm, but when it comes to whipping out their wallet, they shrivel back into their pants and walk away. The E36 M3 LTW? flopped. The E36/7 M coupes? Flopped. The lightweight, fun and tossable e36 318ti compact? Flopped. The E86 Z4 & M coupes? They couldn't give those things away. The Pontiac GTO, the car everyone clamored for? Flopped. The CTS-Wagon that all the internet jizzed on, rotted on the lot. The new Toyo-barus? Go listen to kiddies on the internet bitch that they're "too expensive" at 25k and don't have 400 hp.

Once again, "enthusiasts" have proven they don't buy cars. Hence, the automakers don't give a shit.

You want a lightweight, enthusiast focused BMW with a warranty? They've got you covered. They just stick a British flag on it and call it a MINI. Go pick up a JCW Coupe. They're badass cars.

That, or, you know, just buy a bike. BMW makes some awesome ones.

-Charlie

Of the cars you listed here, the lightweight E36, there are what 10 of them in all of North America, and only two in the US I think? Hardly worth a mention since its not even legal in the US. The M coupe is a penismobile, its ugly and I wouldn't be caught dead driving it or riding in one for that matter. The 318 Ti, again, poor styling. It looks like someone chopped the back of the car off. You wonder why it didn't sell? The Z4, same issue as the M coupe, it looks like a dick. The GTO, well, its big and heavy. Sure its got plenty of power, but its a boat. The CTS Wagon? Are you serious? It might as well be a Pontiac Aztek. There is a reason none of those sold well. Aside from the lightweight E36, the rest are all poorly styled and never should have been built. (Ok, the GTO isn't a bad looking car, but its not what I would call anything but a big Grand Touring car.)

The MINI? Really? I'll call that a nice grocery getter and that's about it. There is nothing mini about it. Should be called the MAXI. Its front wheel drive, who cares about it. I've driven one, and was entirely unimpressed with it. It drove like a typical FWD.

No, BMW isn't catering to people making minimum wage. No manufacturer is so its a mute point. They are catering to the upper class however, just as they always have. Still, if I were making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, they still don't have anything I would spend my money on. I would likely look at an Exage, Porsche GT3RS, or, well, screw it, an Ultima GTR. There really is nothing on the market that I want to buy. Honestly as far as warranties go, I've never owned a car with one so I can't say I care. I do expect things that shouldn't wear out or break, to last. I don't want computer controlled this or that, I don't want a navigation system, I don't want a back up camera (I want the trunk line to be low enough for me to turn and look as I back up the way people should be taught to.) Seriously, I don't give a rats ass about airbags, power windows, moon-roofs, give me a set of race harnesses and a cage. I'll show up to a business meeting in a suit in a car with a roll cage and race seats and harnesses. No big deal.

I realize no company is going to cater to what I want. The Lotus and GT3 RS are likely the closest I can get. It would be nice to see companies go back to simple, well styled, performance based cars that are produced in low numbers for the performance enthusiast. The 1M is almost there, but the styling is funky, its too tall, and the proportions are all wrong. The power is there, it just needs a restyle and a diet. That car should be no heavier than an E30 M3 and with today's tech, it should be no more than 2800lbs The size is right, but the styling is off and the weight is too high. Get back to basics. Heck at the very least offer the option to add or subtract everything on the car. Offer thinner window glass, no a/c, no power windows, no electronic crap other than the engine management system. Sure it will be a custom built car, but one that is custom built with off the shelf parts. Put the //M back in the M.

Will

[Charlie]

Of the cars you listed here, the lightweight E36, there are what 10 of them in all of North America, and only two in the US I think?

You'd think wrong, it was a US only model, they built about 125 of them. I remember them sitting on dealer lots for over a year.

Hardly worth a mention since its not even legal in the US. The M coupe is a penismobile, its ugly and I wouldn't be caught dead driving it or riding in one for that matter. The 318 Ti, again, poor styling. It looks like someone chopped the back of the car off. You wonder why it didn't sell? The Z4, same issue as the M coupe, it looks like a dick. The GTO, well, its big and heavy. Sure its got plenty of power, but its a boat. The CTS Wagon? Are you serious? It might as well be a Pontiac Aztek. There is a reason none of those sold well. Aside from the lightweight E36, the rest are all poorly styled and never should have been built. (Ok, the GTO isn't a bad looking car, but its not what I would call anything but a big Grand Touring car.)

Good job proving my point. Unique, hardcore "enthusiast" cars, and you just poo-pooed each and every one of them.

The MINI? Really? I'll call that a nice grocery getter and that's about it. There is nothing mini about it. Should be called the MAXI. Its front wheel drive, who cares about it. I've driven one, and was entirely unimpressed with it. It drove like a typical FWD.

It's 2600 lbs and smaller than just about anything else on the road today save for a smart car or IQ. Having driven them on track, as well as having one as the wife's DD, it's hard to beat for its 23k price tag. I'd rock one as a track toy any day. If you think it drives like a "typical" FWD, you probably haven't driven much in anger.

No, BMW isn't catering to people making minimum wage. No manufacturer is so its a mute point.

"Mute" point? Seriously bro?

They are catering to the upper class however, just as they always have. Still, if I were making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, they still don't have anything I would spend my money on. I would likely look at an Exage, Porsche GT3RS, or, well, screw it, an Ultima GTR.

Once again, "not our fucking demo".

I'm not really sure I see the crossover between the 60k 4 seat E92 M3 and your choices of the 75k 2 seat Exige which has been out of production since 2011, which, as a DD would be somewhat iffy. For the record, I've driven exiges and elises, and I'm 5'6, ~145, they're a tiny car for me. If you're close to 6 foot, those cars would be a royal PITA on a regular basis

Nor the $175k Porsche GT3 RS or the $150k Kit car Ultima GTR.

Again, not sure I understand the point of your comparison of boutique sports cars to BMW's lineup. They've never built "hardcore" boutique stuff, even the vaunted E30 M3 was jeered at as overweight and overgadgeted in the 80's by the hardcore BMW guys, I mean, it was 2850 lbs!

There really is nothing on the market that I want to buy. Honestly as far as warranties go, I've never owned a car with one so I can't say I care. I do expect things that shouldn't wear out or break, to last. I don't want computer controlled this or that, I don't want a navigation system, I don't want a back up camera (I want the trunk line to be low enough for me to turn and look as I back up the way people should be taught to.) Seriously, I don't give a rats ass about airbags, power windows, moon-roofs, give me a set of race harnesses and a cage. I'll show up to a business meeting in a suit in a car with a roll cage and race seats and harnesses. No big deal.

Just buy a bike.

It's the year 2013 and we live in an era of mandated government safety standards. Airbags have been "a thing" for 25 years.

I realize no company is going to cater to what I want. The Lotus and GT3 RS are likely the closest I can get. It would be nice to see companies go back to simple, well styled, performance based cars that are produced in low numbers for the performance enthusiast.

I listed a number of cars that were exactly like that, you crapped on all of them. People like you are exactly the reasons that car companies don't give two shits about "enthusiasts".

The 1M is almost there, but the styling is funky, its too tall, and the proportions are all wrong. The power is there, it just needs a restyle and a diet. That car should be no heavier than an E30 M3 and with today's tech, it should be no more than 2800lbs The size is right, but the styling is off and the weight is too high.

http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/

There ya go, the closest thing you're going to get to a modern e30 M3.

Get back to basics. Heck at the very least offer the option to add or subtract everything on the car. Offer thinner window glass, no a/c, no power windows, no electronic crap other than the engine management system.

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-m3-gt4.html

175k, There ya go, pony up.

Sure it will be a custom built car, but one that is custom built with off the shelf parts. Put the //M back in the M.

See, here's what I don't get. What does that mean? The M cars have always been loaded and optioned up. The E28 M5 was loaded up, as was the M6, the E30 M3 had heated seats, extra leather, power everything and tons of sound deadening. Hell, even the '02s weren't light compared to their contemporaries. The big coupes were downright pigs.

-Charlie

[Wschnitz]

Still don't get why everyone hates on the 1M, it's a great car and I'll be buying one once i have a steady job.

[CrusherCurtis]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

[z31maniac]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

Excellent analysis bro.

[325ix]

It's kind of hard to make a lightweight car when the gov't mandates you have 37 airbags and a 6ft. crumple zone.

BMW still makes enthusiast cars. Compare a BMW to things offered by other car companies.

[mulletman]

You'd think wrong, it was a US only model, they built about 125 of them. I remember them sitting on dealer lots for over a year.

It sold poorly because they did a piss-poor job of making a 'hardcore' version. The only reason people want them now is because they're rare. It was what, 125 lbs lighter than the standard car? And cost how much more? The cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense. Now if it was 400 lbs lighter, I bet they would have sold much quicker.

Good job proving my point. Unique, hardcore "enthusiast" cars, and you just poo-pooed each and every one of them.

You cannot be serious. The GTO, a 'unique, hardcore "enthusiast" car?' The thing was a damn re-badged Holden, which was basically a Corvette drivetrain under a bloated and shitty chassis. I recall a magazine calling the handing "sofa-like." Throw in absolute SHIT gearing that made the car go faster in 5th than 6th, and you have a car that nobody wants.

And the 318Ti? Right. Okay. Let's take the least powerful of our cars, chop the back off, and give it the rear suspension from the LAST generation of our cars, and expect it to thrive as an 'enthusiast' car! Great idea! That's bullshit, and you know it. He poo-pooed them because you provided poor examples. How many '04 STi's were left on the lot? Those came with no stereo. How about the Evo RS? The one with no A/C, and hand cranked windows? People snatched those up so fast it made Mitsubishi's head spin.

I listed a number of cars that were exactly like that, you crapped on all of them. People like you are exactly the reasons that car companies don't give two shits about "enthusiasts".

No, you listed a number of cars that started out good, but ended up compromised. Either by price, weight, something.

I'd argue that the reason no one has made a good-selling enthusiast car, is that they haven't gone far enough. Everything brought to market is watered down from the concept. The Elise/Exige platform was the only one in recent memory that wasn't.... and what was the result? Released in 2005, the car immediately had about a 4-year waiting list. It continued un-changed until 6 years later, when everyone who wanted one and could afford it had bought one. Cars don't last forever. 6 years is a long fucking run, especially for a car that had no updates other than a couple of boosted models and some cosmetic changes.

http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/

There ya go, the closest thing you're going to get to a modern e30 M3.

Exactly. And I know multiple enthusiasts who are planning to buy that car as their next vehicle.

It's kind of hard to make a lightweight car when the gov't mandates you have 37 airbags and a 6ft. crumple zone.

BMW still makes enthusiast cars. Compare a BMW to things offered by other car companies.

Stop with the safety nonsense.... multiple cars have been made small and light in the last 10 years. If they wanted to, they could do it.

And compare a BMW to other enthusiast cars? Like an Evo IX RS, an early STi, or an Elise/Exige? At the same price point, BMW is being generous if they give you a limited slip diff anymore.

[BlackbirdM3]

There were 44 lightweight E36s brought to North America courtesy of a mister Tom Plucinsky of BMW Canada. One of these was never sold.

As for the US version of the E30 M3, yeah it came fully optioned, however the euro models lacked things like power windows, sunroof, A/c, stereo, non reclining seats and others. The weight was 2569Lbs. The Sport EVO was 2650 lbs giving it a power to weight ratio of a hair over 11 per hp. Exactly the car I'd be looking to buy right now. Yes the US version is a fat pig since it grew an extra 300 or so pounds. I'm currently looking into pulling the power windows out of my car because they are unneeded and more of a pain than they are worth. I'll happily take the weight savings. The A/C system is also on the chopping block, it doesn't work, so I might as well pull it all out. I just haven't figured out why it doesn't work. If it needs a new compressor, the whole nine yards is coming out. I've never owned a car with a a/c in the past so it doesn't really bother me that I wouldn't have one in the M3.

The MINI is small by todays standards, but its huge. Hell, my M3 is huge. I'd rather drive a real MINI over the BMW variation any day of the week. A real MINI is small. Yes, I've autoXed a modern MINI and it was a horrible understeering pig of a car, just like all FWD cars. The thing would not turn at neutral throttle, let alone on throttle. Like I said, it might be ok for a grocery getter.

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage and I'm 6'2 and 190lbs. Hell, I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage. She also autocrosses it all the time as well. If a nearly 80 year old woman can daily drive one, anyone can.

As for poo-pooing the "enthusiast" based cars, if they looked good, I'd give them a shot. Heck, I'd be interested in a lightweight e36 M3, but since there aren't any that are legal in the US, its not happening. The 1M isn't a bad looking car, its sides are just too tall, the windows too small and the trunk is too short. Its just not visually that attractive. Its almost there, but it has too many "extras" that I don't want as well.

The Toyo-buru thing looks like crap, and is unimpressive. I've been racing against them for months and wouldn't you know it, my mostly stock 25 year old M3 has yet to be beaten by one even when I'm on street tires and they are on R-compounds. I give them credit for trying to make something cool, but they clearly can't design a good looking car (it looks like a toad.) Its cheaply built and designed to be thrashed and thrown away. A total waste of $ if you ask me.

The only point I'm trying to make is that manufacturers have all lost their way. As people have already mentioned, the Exage is gone, the GT3 is gone (at least in the US) They are just building people movers, packing them with "stuff" based around the "Planned obsolescence" idea so it will fall apart and they can sell you new parts for a stupid amount of money. After a year or two of replacing expensive stupid parts that should last 20 + years, you sell the thing and buy another poorly built POS that will do the same thing just after the very short warranty runs out. Its not about building a quality car that lasts, its about making as much money as they can because they built their stuff to be thrown out.

Will

[MattBimmer]

the 4 series really made me go " thats it! what the fuck!"

This! And my grandparents own a new gen X5 and the wipers are BMW specific that cost 83 dollars. Like why do they continue to make them so freaking exclusive that even after they are 10 years old and have 100k they are still under affordable. I am globe coming less of a BMW enthusiast in the past few years because they look great their motors seem good but its like a giant rolling computer! There's no need for that, that's is what is awesome about the 1 n coupe it's a little more of a drives car than a computer on wheels

[sumoashe]

Putting blame on the company is misses placed. The blame falls on us. Every time they build a car to try and meet the enthusiast market instead of you guys buying it you sit around and bitch about the little things.

This isn't McDonald's, if you don't like a particular part or aspect then it's up to you to change it. The whole I love everything but the power windows so i'm not gonna buy it excuse doesn't fly. And comparing bmw to Lotus is retarded. Lotus only builds enthusiast cars, bmw has to build cars for everyone while also being nice enough to even bother building enthusiast cars that none of you buy anyways.

The fact that they even still build M cars is amazing, cause they sure as hell don't keep the doors open from the few that sell. So instead of bitching you should be thanking them for still bothering to develop and put these things out. They give you the canvas, its up to you to finish the painting the way you like.

[canakami]

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage ....I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage....the Exage is gone

I'm sorry to be a prick, but this is pissing me off; what the fuck is an EXAGE. I do fancy the Lotus Exige, it's quite the sports car. But I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. If you're going to post as a well informed contributor, at least spell the damn name right.

Moving on:

While I (an enthusiast) do lament the increase in weight and gravitation from small, light[er]weight cars; BMW is first and foremost a business. They're in the business of selling cars and making a profit, and their design and engineering trends follow the big money, not empty pocketed niche markets.

I agree with what someone above said about BMW's in general never having been the lightest of vehicles. While BMW may have kept weight in mind, they never went so far as to compromise luxury for the sake of vehicle dynamics, quite the opposite. If one looked to the M5, the M5 was never lauded for being a lightweight sports saloon, but rather one that looked handsome, had a plethora of amenities, and still went like the wind. The current car (stylistic grievances aside) still follows the same line. Yes, it is a two ton behemoth, but like the M5s that preceded it, it is an executive saloon with appreciable opulence, appreciable handling, and inappropriate speed.

Moving to the M3; the lovely box flared homologation special E30 that brings many of us together was not meant to last. BMW didn't even intend to build many of them, just enough to be legal for use in Group A and Group N racing. It just so happened that people kept buying the damn thing. Don't forget however, the street car was jammed with luxury bits making it weight damn near as much as the 4dr 190e Cossie. They toned down the "racecar for the street" bit further for the E36, but people kept buying them. Same with the E46, same with the E90.

I used to think differently, but I no longer believe that BMW has "lost it's way," but rather, we enthusiasts have chosen a particular point in history to judge all other products by. They, like all other successful companies, have continued to change their product and mantras based on what is likely to keep them profitable. Insinuating you would immediately go out and buy a brand new $60,000 car (which, is roughly what the E30 M3 was when new, after inflation) if only it catered to your minimalist taste is ridiculous.

/endrant

If it wasn't obvious, everything above is just an opinion adding to the debate, nothing personal.