Swap choices, S54, Euro S50, or something else?

[FredK]

Torque monster? I think the S52 definitely has a lot of torque, but it's more noticeable since there is a broad peak. The S54 has more torque everywhere on the curve.

300hp is not "insane", but you can get going pretty quickly. The power is very predictable and the car is easy to throttle steer.

[Asbradley21]

i may be confusing my information with the swap preparation i'm doing (chevy LS), but it'd be worth it to change out the stock e30 steering column anyway for additional airbox clearance, as well as improved feel by eliminating the rubber flex disc. check out this thread: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=273427. vorschlag also makes a spendy collapsable steering column, and some people (like JGood and bmwmech1) on this site have pieced together some nice looking columns with Flaming River u-joints. also.. don't forget about swapping the steering rack! Z3, E36 (all but the 95 M3 variable ratio), or E30 M3...


as for the brakes, personally, I would go with tilton or wilwood pedals and a twin master setup for front and rear. with the adjustable pedal ratio and appropriate master cylinder sizing (probably around 20mm each), the pedal effort shouldn't be too much more than a firm stock/street setup.


no knocking massive's products, he makes great stuff. the race brake kit would be epic. as for the booster, the above solution is just an opinion based on other people's opinions/internet hearsay and research.


i too have read that the non-OD ZF 5 speed is preferred in racing. paired with a 3.23 LSD (from a Z3M) or maybe 3.46 if you can find one, it would probably be a good match with the S54. it's a great solution too because like i mentioned before, you can use the late-model 325 trans crossmember. note, the driveshafts that will work with the 24v motor paired with the ZF are one of the following: E30 M3, 87-88 325e, or e36 m3/328is 4-bolt rear. i happen to have the middle one laying about... and it's for sale. ;)


one last thing... make a build thread!

Thanks a lot for the good info, especially driveshafts and diffs. I'm still unsure about brakes. A dual master set up would be ideal for sure. And I'll be sure to make a build thread over the coming months. What I really need to find is a diff. 4.10 will be a bit ridiculous with all that power. Steering rack is mostly taken care of. I have a spare z3 rack that I was going to use, but 240zs30's s54 will also come with his e46 m3 rack, are those worth using? or should I stick with the z3 rack?

Nothing.


This is certainly a valid point. Your car will turn quicker laptimes on most tracks with an S54. The question is, will it be more fun? I've been to a couple tracks you can pick up a ton of speed on the straights, which means you'll have to scrub off 30-40 mph more than an M42. Those last 10 mph make a difference in driver confidence, at least to me.

I used to have an S50US, and it does not even compare to an S54. The car still pulls hard at 135-140 (true speed, not indicated) whereas an S50US starts running out of puff.

I didn't get out to the track much this season but next year I'll be out a lot more hopefully. My opinion might change as I get used to the power, but right now, I certainly don't need any more.

Yeah, it really does make "sense" to buy an e36 m3 as they ARE everywhere. BUT, I'm not necessarily out to make sense, I'm out to have as much fun as possible, and an s54'd e30 really sounds like fun to me.

I just don't think that 300hp is "insane" for an E30. it's not like an old Nissan Z with a 1200hp twin turbo or something. Yeah, it'll be pretty damn fast, but not uncontrolable. Plus being N/A you don't have to worry about boost suddenly kicking in mid corner. lastly, the S54 isn't exactly a torque monster compared to the S52B32.

Another reason I don't like boost. Well, I do like boost, but it has a way of being a bit unpredictable sometimes, which is no good for track use, at least for me.

This is all starting to be really fun.

[pwagon717]

If I was going to do it all over again, I would do the S54 over the S52. I just completed the S52 in the M3, and have even driven it yet. But seeing all this info and the prices dropping on the S54, why not. I'm going to pull the swap probably next year to begin the process all over again. Next thing you know it, some will start dropping the newer Fseries motors in.

[nando]

Torque monster? I think the S52 definitely has a lot of torque, but it's more noticeable since there is a broad peak. The S54 has more torque everywhere on the curve.

300hp is not "insane", but you can get going pretty quickly. The power is very predictable and the car is easy to throttle steer.

it does but it's like 20-30ft lbs. it's not like you're going from 240ft/lbs to 500 or something.

I feel like ~300whp is a sweet spot for the E30 to keep it driveable and useable. 200whp or less just feels slow. :p

[Kovs]

Torque monster? I think the S52 definitely has a lot of torque, but it's more noticeable since there is a broad peak. The S54 has more torque everywhere on the curve.

300hp is not "insane", but you can get going pretty quickly. The power is very predictable and the car is easy to throttle steer.

I'll second that, 300HP is definitely NOT insane for these cars. In fact, you will get "used to" to the power and will be wanting more on the race track. My car is making 275WHP with a bored Euro S50 (3.2L) and I wouldn't mind another 50 - 75 on the straights. E30s have a significant aero disadvantage at triple digit speeds and will only walk E46 M3s up to 100 or so. You will get trounced by just about any other modern super car - 911 GT3s, 458s, Z06s, etc. Even in the corners, I *think* a properly set-up E30 could handle 375 - 400HP. The biggest limiting factor, IMO, would be tires which is where the flared fender M3 would really be a huge plus. You can run 275s in the rear on the M3. My 4 door with rolled fenders can only run 225/45/15 Hoosiers (and there is still some light rubbing). With the current power level I think the tires are fine, but the extra 50 - 75HP I'm craving would probably require some pricey body work to accommodate bigger rubber (or just accept the challenge of driving a high HP, under tired car).

You can make some of that power up with a different gear ratio. Again, just my opinion, but the 3.46 seems just about optimal for the Euro S5X cars with the 5 speed. 6 speed cars could probably get away with a 3.64 or a 3.73 if you really like living in the red. Figure on a max speed of 130 with the latter.

[VinniE30]

E30 problems...
BMW has so many good choices for engine swaps you can't decide on which one you want
:D

[LJ851]

e30 problems...
Bmw has so many good choices for engine swaps you can't decide on which one you want
:d

qft

[89AlpineM3]

Heres one question if you swap in the S54 and keep the 6 speed. E46 M3 guys run 3.91 and 4.10 gears all the time. My old 2002 Dinan S2 M3 had 3.91 gears and it was great, why cant you run the same diff gearing in a swapped E30?

[325ix]

I would assume it causes traction issues.

[PeteD]

Except for that time I got tunnel vision when he punched it and that was with a 2.93 diff. :p

I like the S54. But I've never had the pleasure to know a euro spec motor. I do agree with Fred, the power becomes predictable (as with any car) and then 300 doesn't seem as crazy.

Torque monster? I think the S52 definitely has a lot of torque, but it's more noticeable since there is a broad peak. The S54 has more torque everywhere on the curve.

300hp is not "insane", but you can get going pretty quickly. The power is very predictable and the car is easy to throttle steer.

[R3Z3N]

E30 problems...
BMW has so many good choices for engine swaps you can't decide on which one you want
:D

Just avoid BMW V12s...

[PeteD]

Heres one question if you swap in the S54 and keep the 6 speed. E46 M3 guys run 3.91 and 4.10 gears all the time. My old 2002 Dinan S2 M3 had 3.91 gears and it was great, why cant you run the same diff gearing in a swapped E30?

BeirBrenner runs a 6 speed with 3.91. He hasn't been around in a while, but I know that is his set up.

[Asbradley21]

it does but it's like 20-30ft lbs. it's not like you're going from 240ft/lbs to 500 or something.

I feel like ~300whp is a sweet spot for the E30 to keep it driveable and useable. 200whp or less just feels slow. :p

I'll second that, 300HP is definitely NOT insane for these cars. In fact, you will get "used to" to the power and will be wanting more on the race track. My car is making 275WHP with a bored Euro S50 (3.2L) and I wouldn't mind another 50 - 75 on the straights. E30s have a significant aero disadvantage at triple digit speeds and will only walk E46 M3s up to 100 or so. You will get trounced by just about any other modern super car - 911 GT3s, 458s, Z06s, etc. Even in the corners, I *think* a properly set-up E30 could handle 375 - 400HP. The biggest limiting factor, IMO, would be tires which is where the flared fender M3 would really be a huge plus. You can run 275s in the rear on the M3. My 4 door with rolled fenders can only run 225/45/15 Hoosiers (and there is still some light rubbing). With the current power level I think the tires are fine, but the extra 50 - 75HP I'm craving would probably require some pricey body work to accommodate bigger rubber (or just accept the challenge of driving a high HP, under tired car).

You can make some of that power up with a different gear ratio. Again, just my opinion, but the 3.46 seems just about optimal for the Euro S5X cars with the 5 speed. 6 speed cars could probably get away with a 3.64 or a 3.73 if you really like living in the red. Figure on a max speed of 130 with the latter.

This hit the nail right on the head. I think the S54 really is the sweet spot for an e30. Probably even enough power it won't leave me wanting more. I'm not out to try and stomp modern supercars, as much fun as that would be, it still is just an e30, it has limits.

If I was going to do it all over again, I would do the S54 over the S52. I just completed the S52 in the M3, and have even driven it yet. But seeing all this info and the prices dropping on the S54, why not. I'm going to pull the swap probably next year to begin the process all over again. Next thing you know it, some will start dropping the newer Fseries motors in.

More encouragement for me to do it right the first time.

E30 problems...
BMW has so many good choices for engine swaps you can't decide on which one you want
:D

Oh the CHOICES.

Heres one question if you swap in the S54 and keep the 6 speed. E46 M3 guys run 3.91 and 4.10 gears all the time. My old 2002 Dinan S2 M3 had 3.91 gears and it was great, why cant you run the same diff gearing in a swapped E30?

I'm not really sure, what I'm reading leads me to believe that with a 5-speed (what I probably will do) that the optimal gearing is 3.25

BeirBrenner runs a 6 speed with 3.91. He hasn't been around in a while, but I know that is his set up.

I would like to see him chime in.

[evandael]

I'm not really sure, what I'm reading leads me to believe that with a 5-speed (what I probably will do) that the optimal gearing is 3.25

try to find a whole z3m rear end, then. bigger CV's, bigger brakes, 5 lug, and a 3.23lsd with a fancy diff cover. :up:

[JGood]

What 5 speed mates to the s54? ZF310? If so, I think a 2.93 or 3.25 would be good. I have similar RWHP and am using that trans, and traction isn't a huge issue with 235 street tires, so r-comps or some track-oriented tire would do fine.