So long e30 M3s...

[tom d]

......Its going to be a long time till original s14 cars will reach 100k.

and I'm banking on the fact that it won't!

[reelizmpro]

I know this thread was all over the map, but part of the discussion was about originality of the M3 and the values of such. I just read an interesting article in the latest Car & Driver, about Classic Car values and how the market is affected by the baby boomers. In short, the baby boomers are getting older and the gen-x'ers aren't interested in their parents old Buicks, Bel-Air's and T-Birds. If anything they want the next generation of classics like early 911's which is why that market is very hot. This is most likely why the e30 M3 market is heating up as well. I like to quote one paragraph out of the article, because it contradicts the originality argument made in this thread and in general by the "anti-swap crowd":

"Tastes change, a fact that will likely also affect the hobby. While today's collector car market is dominated by mostly original cars and more or less accurate restorations, the future may be about restomods---old cars with modern equipment. Heretical as this may be to some, anecdotal evidence already suggests that restomod buyers tend to be younger, which makes sense.

At the end of the article:
The Holy Grail of Hemi 'Cuda of the next generation may very well come from abroad--- an e30 M3 or a Zanardi Edition Acura NSX.

I didn't know Car and Driver was such an authority on E30 M3's...or any BMW's, let alone classic BMW's. I would tend to believe the buyer's guide I read in BMW Car, a magazine by BMW enthusiasts for BMW enthusiasts. "The future may be about restomods," especially if people keep swapping engines today and keep passing these cars along not giving the next owner a choice. It's easy to find S50, S54 or whichever modern engine you wish but will be close to impossible to find an S14 very soon. It's that simple really but if people really want an M3, they are going to get one no matter what engine is in it so there will always be a market but it won't be the same.

Case and point...20 years ago people thought it was cool to put M50's in E30 M3's. More reliable engine, same HP, cheaper mods, more torque, etc. People laugh at it today and basically value it as a roller + engine at 7-9K or whatever a roller goes for + what the engine goes for. 10 years ago S50's were being put in...and now today it's no big deal so we see turbo's and V8/V10 setups. Do you see the trend? With every mod getting further and further away from the original recipe sometimes there's no where to go but back. You are starting to see people do it now. There's 2 WTB threads on S14 looking specifically for S14 powered M3's. I hadn't even seen that before until recently.

[blunttech]

and I'm banking on the fact that it won't!

Even if youre right and you sell yours for 100k and I sell my bastardization for 80k Ill gladly forfeit 20k to drive the kind of car I want

[reelizmpro]

Blunt, it won't be that close...trust me. Do it because you wanna do it and have fun...not for value. Keep the S14 around just incase. What's cool now...in 10 years won't be a big deal.

[norMcal]

I didn't know Car and Driver was such an authority on E30 M3's...or any BMW's, let alone classic BMW's. I would tend to believe the buyer's guide I read in BMW Car, a magazine by BMW enthusiasts for BMW enthusiasts. "The future may be about restomods," especially if people keep swapping engines today and keep passing these cars along not giving the next owner a choice. It's easy to find S50, S54 or whichever modern engine you wish but will be close to impossible to find an S14 very soon. It's that simple really but if people really want an M3, they are going to get one no matter what engine is in it so there will always be a market but it won't be the same.

Case and point...20 years ago people thought it was cool to put M50's in E30 M3's. More reliable engine, same HP, cheaper mods, more torque, etc. People laugh at it today and basically value it as a roller + engine at 7-9K or whatever a roller goes for + what the engine goes for. 10 years ago S50's were being put in...and now today it's no big deal so we see turbo's and V8/V10 setups. Do you see the trend? With every mod getting further and further away from the original recipe sometimes there's no where to go but back. You are starting to see people do it now. There's 2 WTB threads on S14 looking specifically for S14 powered M3's. I hadn't even seen that before until recently.

You are correct, C&D is not the authority on e30 M3's. However the article was written by Rob Sass, VP of content at Hagerty and THEY ARE the authority on classic car market, being that they insure the majority of them.

Don't let some of my earlier arguments fool you. I very much appreciate the S14, the performance, the collect ability, the history and all that. I just get irritated when guys start throwing comments around like "your sacrilegious" and "your not a real enthusiast", based on the fact that I currently own a S52 e30 M3 as a hobby car. I think I explained why and when that makes sense and my history of owning BMW's over the last decades. On top of that I've followed BMW Motorsport from the very early days of Formula 2, or the 320i 3-series in touring car racing (Group 5) with drivers like Manfred Winkelhock, Marc Surer and Eddie Cheever, or the struggles with the M1 and how they created the Procar series as pre-race to F1. So for somebody to label me (or anybody else for that matter) not an enthusiast, based on a particular engine under the hood, is pretty ridiculous. Chances are it's quite the other way around and owning a e30 M3 with an S14 doesn't automatically make you one, although it is a good start ;-)

Further, the e30 M3 is desirable for many reasons, not just the engine! And therefor the value will go up on the resto-mods as well. Sure the engines will change over time as you pointed out and we might see more S65 V8's or whatever, but that does not change the argument. I realize the S52 is nothing special, but be that as it may, it makes my car faster and more reliable than it would have been with an S14. There is a market for the swap cars and the article clearly proves it. The fact that it has been done so many times with the e30 kind of speaks for itself.......so many can't be wrong!

[norMcal]

Even if youre right and you sell yours for 100k and I sell my bastardization for 80k Ill gladly forfeit 20k to drive the kind of car I want

Bingo! It reminds me of people telling me not to buy a condo in the Silicon Valley back in the early 90's. The argument was that you needed a house, nobody want's condo's, so they don't appreciate. They were wrong! Doubled my investment in 6 years, same ratio as houses. What the "experts" didn't see, is that the astronomical house prices left a void and people had no choice to go for the cheaper condo's and townhouses.

I know clearly off topic, but the point is, nobody knows what the market holds exactly. I think the Hagerty article I mentioned in my earlier posts tells us that the new Generation coming up, might want a car for much different things, than what today's collectors want the cars for. The e30 M3 is already slow by today's standard and for somebody that wants one as a cool car, they will pay a premium for a tricked out restomod. Just look at the Singer 911. Granted the guy dumps a ton of money in to it, but there are people that are paying $500k for them. The car is far from original!

[blunttech]

Blunt, it won't be that close...trust me. Do it because you wanna do it and have fun...not for value. Keep the S14 around just incase. What's cool now...in 10 years won't be a big deal.

I know Barry I dont "invest" in cars. Just trying to have fun with them

[norMcal]

I know Barry I dont "invest" in cars. Just trying to have fun with them

Good point! I didn't mean to imply that I have mine as an investment either. It's just a bonus that the values are rising.

[LSM3]

There will ALWAYS be more of a market for original cars. That is the case for ALL collectible vehicles. Is there a market for modified cars....YES. You might have to wait a bit longer but you will sell a whatever powered a E30 M3. Will it sell for less....probably. I didn't buy one as an investment. I bought it to BUILD and DRIVE. Putting miles on the cars LOWERS their value. Are you going to not drive it?? If the guy who mods his car does not care, why does anyone else? I guarantee you that people with swapped M3s have just as much fun as stock owners...maybe more? Lol. Really though WHO CARES???? At the end of the day it's metal and rubber. If it means THAT MUCH to you what OTHER people do with THEIR PROPERTY...I feel for you.

[Kevinl]

E30 M3's are slow by modern standards but so are all these muscle cars that sell for big money most run low 15's to high 14's not that far off from a stock e30 m3 and there is no comparison in handling or braking

[reelizmpro]

You are correct, C&D is not the authority on e30 M3's. However the article was written by Rob Sass, VP of content at Hagerty and THEY ARE the authority on classic car market, being that they insure the majority of them.

I would tend to believe the very people who have been in the BMW e30 scene for decades before a VP who works at one of the companies that offers agreed value policies. You can say your car is worth 100K, it doesn't mean it is or will be. That remains to be seen. IMO, you have to be in the trenches to really know E30's. Know what's valuable and what is not. Know what's going to be and what isn't.

Your condo analogy doesn't apply to the E30 M3 because they are constantly building condos...you can always find them and values go up and down. The E30 M3 on the other hand started with a fixed number 17,xxx produced worldwide and that number has and is diminishing with each day. So owning one is in fact an opportunity. I can build an M3 bodied S50 car any day of the week and it will look and perform exactly the same or better than yours...but I can't build a genuine E30 M3. So wouldn't you say the S14 was a key ingredient??? I would.

So many newer cars are faster than old cars...so what? newer cars are better in almost every aspect and they are supposed to be, yet we still drive E30's for a reason. What is your reason...if I may ask? You want the nostalgic/iconic car without the nostalgic/iconic engine?

[e30m3s54turbo]

:drink:

[Roysneon]

I know Barry I dont "invest" in cars. Just trying to have fun with them

Well then fuck you. That's not the point of being a car enthusiast and it never has been. There is no room for that sort of attitude in this hobby. The only way to prove you are worthy of owning a classic BMW is to do what the internet tells you.

[nando]

Well then fuck you. That's not the point of being a car enthusiast and it never has been. There is no room for that sort of attitude in this hobby. The only way to prove you are worthy of owning a classic BMW is to do what the internet tells you.

you should have seen the hate his V10 swap was getting on corner carvers. wow. it's like they were a couple of high school kids pissing on their lawn or something.. turned into like a 5 page argument/flame war and all JakeB posted was the first few sets of pictures.

[blunttech]

you should have seen the hate his V10 swap was getting on corner carvers. wow. it's like they were a couple of high school kids pissing on their lawn or something.. turned into like a 5 page argument/flame war and all JakeB posted was the first few sets of pictures.

lol Bring the tech