No more MT BMWs in 2019 - and why I'll never buy anything past an EXX series

[coldweatherblue]

May have been mentioned but the 1/2 series will still be available in manual transmission.

I get what BMW is doing, and the new 8-speed paddle shifter is pretty fun. Have also driven a new A4 with their paddle shifter and felt like a fun car..

But not nearly as fun as the E30.

My daily commute is 5 miles of hairpin corners, a few chicane round-a-bounts, and hills on mostly empty 2-lane country roads followed by a short highway section. No stop lights and I usually go door-to door without any traffic.

To drive the E30 at the same speed and smoothness as my wife drives her X5 or everyone else drives their 6000lb full sized pickups requires well-matched downshifts and fun/safe turn-in/weight transfers.

After 15 years of daily driving E30s, this is still fun for me. Almost as fun as riding a motorcycle.

When it's no longer fun or I can no longer physically use a clutch I'll probably get a 4runner or something and call it a day, but until then I don't really see the point of making my life less enjoyable by driving something other than an E30.

[Staszek]

This is what you call "reduction to the absurd"

I will agree with you there, I could have used a better example.

[varg]

Should leaded fuel still be a choice?

This is what you call "reduction to the absurd"

[djjerme]

We bought my wife’s Audi A3 brand new, and I don’t really enjoy driving it. The bazillion speed automatic is sluggish shifting in sport mode, likes to hunt in auto mode, and the lag/throttle response is unpredictable at best.

Fun fact though, her A3 hatch is 1 inch in each direction bigger than my E30 Touring.

I’ll never buy brand new for me, because I like changing cars frequently and if you do that with brand new, you’re pissing away money. But for my wife, I’ll buy new because she’ll drive it for a decade.





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[nando]

1) MT transmissions do not kill people, cause cancer, brain damage, etc - like leaded gasoline did (AT might make you brain dead though, lol). So a pretty poor comparison. It's more like how future cars will be self-driving only, because why do anything in a car like shift gears or steer? the car does it better anyway. see my point?

2) sure, people who bought used E30s 20 years ago couldn't buy a new BMW then. But what happens over time? Every single BMW I've had since has been newer & more expensive. It's possible, even likely, that eventually I would buy a new one (I could afford one, but - meh). I make like 10x as much money as I did when I bought my E30, but since they literally do not make a single car that I would want to buy now, that possibility is gone.

So it doesn't follow that BMW shouldn't care about the 2nd hand market, because those are the people who already love BMWs and are more likely to choose that brand first if they are in the market for a new car.

[Stanley Rockafella]

I don't want the grip or speed modern performance cars provide, nor do I want their width and weight. BMW can do what it wants with the entirety of the range and I don't care. I just want them to maintain enough profitability to reproduce classic parts for their cars I love.

:hitler:

[E30 Wagen]

Yeah, the point I should have emphasized more is that while I believe there are a lot of enthusiasts who want a manual car, fewer of them can afford a new BMW, or any new car for that matter, compared to like 10-20 years ago. Also, even if they can afford one, I don't think enthusiasts are as interested in current BMWs as they were when great cars like the e46 M3 and e39 M5 were launched. So why make payments on something new when there are still clean examples of e46, e39, e92, etc, still floating around. Just like how people are paying a premium for old Porsches or Supras or NSXs.

[Staszek]

One other note I forgot to mention earlier. BMW Sales cares about one owner... The guy who walks into the dealership and buys a brand new car.

I have never bought a new BMW, and frankly have no ground to stand on complaining that BMW is getting rid of a manual gearbox.

Now if I bought a new car every 2 years from them and made those manual transmission sales numbers mean something, different story

However, as most of us are 2nd, 3rd, hell 10th owners of our cars, we didn't step up to the plate, due to financial, personal, whatever reasons, and thus we can't complain other than for the sake of complaining.

Also, as a guy who does a large amount of racing, I've driven manuals, DCT's, PDK, SMG, and standard auto's on the track.. and while rowing gears is fun, I've had a blast with modern DCT cars on the racetrack...

its ALL about sales numbers (yes, emissions has a part to play) but if millions of people a year walked into a dealership and said GIVE ME A 6SPEED 3 SERIES, you damn well bet they would still make them. However, per a friend of mine who sells BMW's at a local Northwest dealership, NOBODY wants them, nobody buys them. Now, when they come in on trade for CPO, etc they do sell rather quickly, to an enthusiast who did not want to spend 90k on a car, but instead wanted to buy one for 50k.

Look at the MX5 Miata, which has a damn near 50% take rate (I think higher actually, although I last read about this in 2016) on the manual transmission. You think they are going to get rid of it? Fat chance. Same with the FRS/BRZ. Cheap new cars that teenagers and folks into their 30's want a stick in.

Thanks for saying what I was trying too more eloquently :)

[James Crivellone]

One other note I forgot to mention earlier. BMW Sales cares about one owner... The guy who walks into the dealership and buys a brand new car.

I have never bought a new BMW, and frankly have no ground to stand on complaining that BMW is getting rid of a manual gearbox.

Now if I bought a new car every 2 years from them and made those manual transmission sales numbers mean something, different story

However, as most of us are 2nd, 3rd, hell 10th owners of our cars, we didn't step up to the plate, due to financial, personal, whatever reasons, and thus we can't complain other than for the sake of complaining.

Also, as a guy who does a large amount of racing, I've driven manuals, DCT's, PDK, SMG, and standard auto's on the track.. and while rowing gears is fun, I've had a blast with modern DCT cars on the racetrack...

its ALL about sales numbers (yes, emissions has a part to play) but if millions of people a year walked into a dealership and said GIVE ME A 6SPEED 3 SERIES, you damn well bet they would still make them. However, per a friend of mine who sells BMW's at a local Northwest dealership, NOBODY wants them, nobody buys them. Now, when they come in on trade for CPO, etc they do sell rather quickly, to an enthusiast who did not want to spend 90k on a car, but instead wanted to buy one for 50k.

Look at the MX5 Miata, which has a damn near 50% take rate (I think higher actually, although I last read about this in 2016) on the manual transmission. You think they are going to get rid of it? Fat chance. Same with the FRS/BRZ. Cheap new cars that teenagers and folks into their 30's want a stick in.

[Staszek]

I wonder if emerging markets such as the Chinese middle/upper class are a factor in how automakers prioritize their design goals. In Europe and America we've had 100 years of car culture borne out of a freedom to travel, a booming industry, and racing. Even though more people (or maybe just picky auto journalists) are expecting automakers to incorporate more "technology" and convenience options, there's still a huge culture of driving enthusiasts that want a fun, manual transmission car. The problem is they're all cheap bastards. The used sports car market has never been hotter and restoration shops are always busy. We're as materialistic as ever but interestingly it's as much for things in the past as for the future. We no longer really care about "keeping up with the Joneses". However, I think cultures like China are at the start of that so premium brands are catering to markets demanding the shiniest and fanciest new thing. I bet nobody in China is remotely interested in a manual transmission because it's perceived as outdated. The life span of a car there is probably at most five years so I wouldn't be surprised if within ten years there's a whole industry of dismantler's in China trying to sell super low mileage engine/components, if not complete cars, to Europe and the US.

Is anybody in the US even buying 2 series? Personally I think they're ugly. I've only seen a few out in the wild and my dealership only has like one or two in stock. It's sad manuals are dying, but it's also frustrating that everything is getting so big. I'm really disappointed I didn't buy a new 1 series when I had the chance; that's going to be a huge cult car because it's just the right size. The lack of a small sporty coupe from BMW is really going to hurt them later on, unless they plan to abandon that market anyway.

I think another big factor is more people moving to urban areas, which is creating the market for electric and self-driving technology.

I think you are wrong when you say there are huge amounts of people who still want manuals. If there was more uptake more car makers would produce them. If the volume is there, it's cheaper to make a manual then it is to make an auto, the automaker would go toward the cheaper option to manufacture, the demand is just not there.

There is definitely an enthusiast section that wants them, but if you look at the total population of the country it's really small.

As for the 2 series, I see a lot of them here in the Chicago area, and a decent amount when I am back in NJ.

The problem there is even though people are buying them, and there is an option for a manual, not many people are choosing them.

When I euro delivered my M3 in manual the guy showing the car to me said thank you, we rarely see anyone ordering these things in manual anymore.

[E30 Wagen]

I wonder if emerging markets such as the Chinese middle/upper class are a factor in how automakers prioritize their design goals. In Europe and America we've had 100 years of car culture borne out of a freedom to travel, a booming industry, and racing. Even though more people (or maybe just picky auto journalists) are expecting automakers to incorporate more "technology" and convenience options, there's still a huge culture of driving enthusiasts that want a fun, manual transmission car. The problem is they're all cheap bastards. The used sports car market has never been hotter and restoration shops are always busy. We're as materialistic as ever but interestingly it's as much for things in the past as for the future. We no longer really care about "keeping up with the Joneses". However, I think cultures like China are at the start of that so premium brands are catering to markets demanding the shiniest and fanciest new thing. I bet nobody in China is remotely interested in a manual transmission because it's perceived as outdated. The life span of a car there is probably at most five years so I wouldn't be surprised if within ten years there's a whole industry of dismantler's in China trying to sell super low mileage engine/components, if not complete cars, to Europe and the US.

Is anybody in the US even buying 2 series? Personally I think they're ugly. I've only seen a few out in the wild and my dealership only has like one or two in stock. It's sad manuals are dying, but it's also frustrating that everything is getting so big. I'm really disappointed I didn't buy a new 1 series when I had the chance; that's going to be a huge cult car because it's just the right size. The lack of a small sporty coupe from BMW is really going to hurt them later on, unless they plan to abandon that market anyway.

I think another big factor is more people moving to urban areas, which is creating the market for electric and self-driving technology.

[moatilliatta]

We shouldn't be directly mad at BMW. We should be mad at the Government, they have more force on this than BMW.

[Staszek]

BMWs were fuel injected in the 70s :p

How is having less choices progress?

True lol!

It depends on the choices. You can still get manuals in certain BMWs just not as many.

Should leaded fuel still be a choice?

I am agreeing with most, I am upset that there are less MT choices, but I also understand that it makes sense why there isn't.

[varg]

There is a reason F1 cars are not manuals, its forward progress, not F1 losing their way.

F1 is about lap times, millions of dollars, and rules. F1 has about as much to do with fun driving and driver's cars as botany does.

In this age nobody is making the argument that you're going to be beating the other guy by tenths because you have a manual and he doesn't, it's about personal preference and enjoyment. Moving away from having the choice for that isn't progress for anyone but the bean counters.

[nando]

BMWs were fuel injected in the 70s :p

How is having less choices progress?