Porsche 951s (aka 944's) - what's your thoughts

[KenC]

I was looking at these to buy when I was E30 M3 shopping. I decided against it because the ergonomics sucked big time (non adjustable steering wheel is waaaayyy too low, pretty much in my lap) and I heard from a friend who is a porsche tech at the dealer here that they are a major PITA to work on, and cost a fortune to keep going.

I've driven a 944 many times and I've never had a problem with the wheel. I'm 6 feet tall, and I though it was great. Just use the power seat adjustment to lower it.
I loved driving it and feeling so low to the ground. You feel really connected to the ground when you drive one. The manual steering makes you really feel the road.
I almost crapped my pants a few times going into some 180 degree turns at about 35-40mph. There is absolutely zero nose dive going into turns, it's amazing.
If you buy one and take care of it, it won't be outrageous to maintain. A friend of mine had a 944 (na) with 160K miles on it, and it was in superb shape (a stack of records literally 2 inches thick). You just have to find the right one. He bought it from a true enthusiast. The one he bought happened to be the guy's 16th 944 that he'd owned.

[Jon325i]

I have a friend who runs a Porsche repair/race prep shop and whenever we start talking about water-cooled Porsches, he always reminds me of how expensive these cars can be. Over the years, he has repeatedly made a good point:

A 944 (turbo or not) may be fairly reasonable in cost when buying it, but its the maintenance costs while you own it which are the killer. You would be better off saving a bit more money and buying a 80s vintage 911SC or Carrera. Maybe not quite as fast as a 951, but regular maintenance is cheaper, it'll have better resale value, and you will be driving a legend. Only catch is learning to drive a tail-heavy car at the limit.

The last time I was at his shop, a customer had dropped off a '79 911SC for an oil change, valve adjust, and a couple of other small details. This car had 322,xxx miles on the orig. motor. Granted, for this car to go this far, its been babied most of its life. Any aggressive driving or club racing will have the engine expiring sooner, but it still should go 200K miles.

Jon

i think you fail to realize that air-cooled porsches while cheaper to maintain for maintenance items, anything big is insanley expensive, i dont even want to think about what a clutch job costs to do on a 930

I'll give you that.....930s aren't cheap. Then again, anything Porsche with a turbo attached to it is outrageously expensive.....purchasing or maintaining. The point I was making focused on the 80s vintage 911SC and the 911 Carrera. Neither of these cars are turbocharged and when maintained properly, can provide bulletproof performance and longevity. Granted a 951 is capable of outperformaning either of these cars, over the long haul a 951 is going to cost you more to keep running. That was my point.

Jon

[Rob]

Jon is absolutely correct, the 944 series will nickel and dime you to death. Another factor is 'fun to drive' no matter how fast a 944/928/whatever is, it will NEVER be as fun to drive as a 911. thats not bias (my family has owned both), its just fact. the 911 series simply involves the driver more. The 944s are stable, neutral, etc etc, which is a good thing, but it doesnt make the heart race like a rear weight bias does, at least when you know how to drive it.

[rwh11385]

Rob, Jon, etc.

I don't think my female friend is up to the task of an 911, but perhaps my pre-med friend is.

How much would a 80s vintage 911 run for? He's in love with 911s, and maybe that would be his route. I dunno, but he's in love with Porsche, and would definately appreciate something along these lines.

[Rob]

79-83 911 SCs can be had in good condition in the mid teens, and early carreras in good condition start in the low 20s. I suggest having him test drive a few early examples (79-80s), as they are definately not for everybody.

[rwh11385]

Meh, that seems like a little much for him. But I was thinking they'd still be valuable, just wanted to check.

Thanks guys. I seriously do think 951s are awesome......would be a nice Sunday driver when I'm older......(wishful thinking)

[mspiegle]

i think changing the clutch on those is a pain. Requires removal of transaxle and rear suspension and torque tube if i rmemeber correctly.

[Rob]

you do remember correctly.

[spencers]

We have an '84 944 here at home. But its on jackstands! :( It's gonna be finished this summer.

[Den]

I've always liked that style porshe. the cost for maintenence scares me though.

I'll second this thought, over a grand to do the cluch. If I was to get one it would be a 944 S2 or a 968 but those are both still expensive compared to the lowly 325's.

I'll 3rd it. Pricey parts + not DIY friendly ruin the Porsche fantasy for me.

8-valve 944 has only 150hp, and the 190hp 16-v motor is reportedly a real pain to work on.

You'll probably get the best opinions form guys who have owned both Prosche and BMW.

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e30/forum.php?postid=649401&page=4

http://forums1.roadfly.org/porsche/forums/924-944-968/2447358-1.html

[johnb3]

porsche/944's

I'm currently the owner of an 84 944na...bought the car for $600 after a tree had fallen on it. Put about $2000 in it for timing belt, seals, water pump, radiator, ball joints, clutch master and slave...and have driven it for 6 years with only minor things going on that I have messed with. Daily driver 30 miles a day.

There are certain things that just go wrong with this model car. Sunroof stops, power window buttons, cruise control "brain", but if you keep up with maintenance then they can be pretty reliable and are a blast to drive. Not very fast, but I never really understood what taking a turn and accelerating full throttle really meant until I got this car. Like it's glued to the road.

I am currently due for a clutch, and will probably sell it rather than spend the money to replace (they have a rubber centered clutch which eventually erodes thru time, the 951's have a spring centered clutch which is less prone to fail). Plus, I just purchased a '91 325is that is very clean. Thought I would try the BMW route since I've always liked the style of the cars.

Oh, yeah...my 944 has 246,000 miles on it and the engine is still running great!

[Den]

I remember C&D naming the 944 the best handing car several times, and I bellieve all of you guys who say its awesöm, but do you really think that an E30 with a full-boat suspension setup couldn't hang with a 944 in the twisties?

Let's say you bought a good-running E30 in decent shape for $2500 and spent another $3500 on suspension upgrades:
big brakes(maybe a 5-lug conversion to get cheaper big brakes)
fancy springs of your choice, coil overs, whatever
appropriate shocks for the springs, Konis or Bils
adj sway bars
M3 bushings, etc, etc.
perhaps AOTA in a tuner package

So you now have a $6k E30 that handles like the dickens . . .

Just went through the entire 944 research thing....
Unless the car is mechanically perfect and cheap (oxymoron) there are no real deals out there. A $3000 dollar car will need at least 2-3k to get it to mechanical parity. That said, look at cars that start at 5-6k and that have very throrough service histories.

Sure, the 944 suspension could be upgraded too, but let's say the total budget for each car must be the same, so that we compare apples to apples. What gives a $6k 944 in decent shape the ability to run away & hide from the E30? Is it because the transmission is in the rear? Is it because it's 150 lbs lighter? Because the suspension is Porsche-tuned?

[M-technik-3]

Iquote]
Sure, the 944 suspension could be upgraded too, but let's say the total budget for each car must be the same, so that we compare apples to apples. What gives a $6k 944 in decent shape the ability to run away & hide from the E30? Is it because the transmission is in the rear? Is it because it's 150 lbs lighter? Because the suspension is Porsche-tuned?

And carries only two people has no trunk, I did the hatchback Scirocco to pass on the Porsche. Another apple and orange comparison.

[johnb3]

944 vs E30 (not really)

for starters, center of gravity on a 944 is almost dead center between the front and back wheels. Also, center of gravity is much lower than the e30. suspension mods are done frequently on the 944 series, but for the earlier models really all you need are beefier sway bars, stiffer shocks and occasionally bigger brakes, certainly not adding up to $3000. My early 944 model has hp of over 160, but the 951 models could go much higher with minor cost and chip (230 not uncommon).

I'm sure there are benefits and downside to both the 944 and e30.

[Den]

Re: 944 vs E30 (not really)

I didn't mean to imply that the 944 needed a $3k suspension upgrade. Quite the opposite, I was thinking that the 944 probably comes from the factory pretty much set up for the track, while the E30 does not, so I wanted to know if the E30 could be made competitive without spending more than a 944 in good condition would cost. I'm trying to discover if there's some magic in the basic configuration of the 944, or if the suspension is just tweaked really well.

OK, so the 944 is lower, and the wheels are closer to the corners of the car?

The E30 can be lowered, but the powertrain may still sit higher than in the 944 . . .

I think of a mid-engine configuration as one in which the engine sits in front of the rear axle, but BMW likes to say that the Z8 is mid-engined becasue the motor's mass is centered well behind the front axle. Is the motor in the 944 positioned far back?