Horrific Misuse Of The Right To Free Speech - On The Radio

[bert]

on 9/11 we were attacked on our own soil...when i say
"we", i refer to the United States of America--NOT the united
nations...that being said, i could care less what the UN's
opinion is of us or our actions...Germany and France would
like to think that they can control us and the UN is the best chance
they have of accomplishing that...i have friends living in Europe
who frequently comment that the unity of those nations in the
UN is a total farce...obviously, what is in the UN's best interest is
not in the USA's best interest...every country that's a member of
that organization would like nothing more than to see the USA buckle...

bert

[Tangent]

The execution of that civilian on video did EXACTLY what those men wanted it to do, make you all blind with rage.

I doubt that. Much more likely the purpose of that video was to intimidate us. They want nothing more than to destroy us and the best way to do that is to demoralize us first. They are counting on people seeing it and immediately calling for a withdrawal of our troops. That of course would be the stupidest reaction. I have a feeling that Spain will be paying for their immediate capitulation in pretty short order. All Spain did was announce to every terrorist in the world that if their government does anything you don't like, the way to get it to change is to kill as many Spaniards as you can.

I love how the world as a whole is now afraid to do anything more than talk at a problem. Any time a country starts killing a few thousand people for one reason or another the UN and most other nations respond by trying to reason with the offending country. The UN used diplomacy with Iraq for a decade and Saddam was still not allowing weapons inspectors to do what he agreed to. If we had left it up to the UN we'd still be sitting with our thumbs up our asses while he did whatever the hell he wanted, all the while implying and behaving as if he had nukes, more chemical weapons, bio weapons etc...

The UN reminds me of all these parents I see that are afraid to discipline their children. They're easy to spot, they're the ones who's kids are screaming and running around the store and are throwing things from the shelves while the parents soothingly tell them to please stop. Just like those parents, the UN refuses to take any blame for situations that got ugly because of their lack of action. It's like parents blaming their kid's teachers when their kid turns out to be a delinquent punk.

All we're seeing on the news now is following the politically correct line of "it's not their fault". We're turning into a nation of apologists who think that criminals are the true victims and that victims of crime must have deserved it somehow. I'm not arguing that it wasn't horrible for the US soldiers to play their game of Iraqi Stacking, but give me a break! That's all we hear about while there's little to no mention of civilians getting beheaded. The story of the civilians getting murdered, burned, dragged through the streets while crowds beat the bodies before they were hung from a bridge has also dropped off the radar while people are screaming for Rumsfeld to resign because a bunch of Army privates embarassed some Iraqis.

I even heard some politico say that Iraq's torture chambers have just reopened under new management. What kind of crap-for-brains can equate stacking a bunch of naked blindfolded men to slowly dipping people into vats of acid and tearing them limb from limb. Lets get a grip people.

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

[bert]

well said tangent...in a nutshell, we can take care of our own business--
unless liberal talking heads succeed in getting this thing derailed...

bert

[OOMPH!]

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ken, there are many bad people in our country, but Iraq is a breeding ground for blood thirsty criminals. Stop saying that we are the same as these people, because if you truly believe that then you would feel safe going over to Iraq now. Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy. I don't believe any of our Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, etc. religions here have the same beliefs. Iraqis are filled with hate and they'll never change. We're not like them in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.....

[bimmerphile]

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ken, there are many bad people in our country, but Iraq is a breeding ground for blood thirsty criminals. Stop saying that we are the same as these people, because if you truly believe that then you would feel safe going over to Iraq now. Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy. I don't believe any of our Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, etc. religions here have the same beliefs. Iraqis are filled with hate and they'll never change. We're not like them in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.....

Well that's a naïve statement.

[MattE30]

Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy.

Which is why organized religion (not singleing out islam) causes more bad than good.

[OOMPH!]

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ken, there are many bad people in our country, but Iraq is a breeding ground for blood thirsty criminals. Stop saying that we are the same as these people, because if you truly believe that then you would feel safe going over to Iraq now. Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy. I don't believe any of our Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, etc. religions here have the same beliefs. Iraqis are filled with hate and they'll never change. We're not like them in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.....

Well that's a naïve statement.

Kris, do you not see how the Iraqi people hold their terrorists as heroes? Granted, there are good people in every religion, even Muslim. But, the Muslim beliefs are the only religion that actually teach aggression. Naive? Kris, are we or are we not the same as those people?

[bimmerphile]

Kris, do you not see how the Iraqi people hold their terrorists as heroes? Granted, there are good people in every religion, even Muslim. But, the Muslim beliefs are the only religion that actually teach aggression. Naive? Kris, are we or are we not the same as those people?

Fundamentally, yes, we are the same as these people.


For example, I like my way of life just the way it is, regardless of how the rest of the world sees it. If the US were invaded, and then occupied, you better believe I would be pissed, as I'm sure you would be too. Anyone would be pissed if their way of life was turned upside down. In fact, I, or you, or whoever, might even hate those that invaded and are occupying my country. Then these occupants from a distant land decide to take control, though they claim it's in "the best interest." This would be just as frustrating as a parent saying "No, hun, stop. It's not in your best interest to act like that" which would cause the hatred to swell even more. From this point of view, if a cocky "invader" that rejected guarded transport freely traveling in my country where they new they were hated, and then spoke butchered English with an air of superiority, treating you as completely uncivilized, and with your immense hatred knowing that this person and their people are responsible for ruining your life, and destroying the world you know, you might do something "uncivilized."


Please note, I am not defending or allying with these terrorists in any way. As I pointed out, I love my way of life, and it is because of a threat to my way of life that Iraq was invaded to begin with. I just want to point out that we are all the same people, and we're all capable of atrocities if there is enough hate.


One love, man. One love.

[decay]

on 9/11 we were attacked on our own soil...when i say
"we", i refer to the United States of America--NOT the united
nations...that being said, i could care less what the UN's
opinion is of us or our actions...

political leaders with that kind of attitude are the reason why 9/11 happened-
you can only say "fuck what you think, i'm doing what i want" so many times before someone gets pissed off enough to kill people.
and rest assured that our unilateral action in iraq has created at least one more bin Laden... probably many.

[KenC]

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ken, there are many bad people in our country, but Iraq is a breeding ground for blood thirsty criminals. Stop saying that we are the same as these people, because if you truly believe that then you would feel safe going over to Iraq now. Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy. I don't believe any of our Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, etc. religions here have the same beliefs. Iraqis are filled with hate and they'll never change. We're not like them in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.....

I'm not even sure how to address this display of utter ignorance. You need to stop watching Fox News.
Your pre-conceived notions of Islam are completely wrong. The minimal amount of extremists who claim to act on behalf of Islam do not follow the teachings of the Qu'ran at all. Nearly all of the muslims in the world believe that Bin Laden and those like him (those who kill in the name of Islam) are not true muslims. Islam is not a violent religion and certainly does not teach aggression.
I'm not sure where you went to school (or if you did), but you need to get your facts straight and not place the 99% of peaceful muslim people into the same group with the few extremists.

[KenC]

Somebody also brought up the murder of the 14 year old boy who was dragged to death behind a truck here in the US. Are you honestly telling me that a handful of racists makes this country the same as a place where instead of the killers being prosecuted they would have been hailed as heroes. Do you think there is any city in the US where they could have openly dragged the body through the streets and where the reaction would have been for people to run out of their houses for the opportunity to beat the body while signing and dancing? Not even Bin Laden himself could expect that kind of brutal treatment in this country from such a large group of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ken, there are many bad people in our country, but Iraq is a breeding ground for blood thirsty criminals. Stop saying that we are the same as these people, because if you truly believe that then you would feel safe going over to Iraq now. Their muslim religion is based upon "an eye for an eye", and anyone who is not a muslim is an enemy. I don't believe any of our Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, etc. religions here have the same beliefs. Iraqis are filled with hate and they'll never change. We're not like them in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.....

Well that's a naïve statement.

Kris, do you not see how the Iraqi people hold their terrorists as heroes? Granted, there are good people in every religion, even Muslim. But, the Muslim beliefs are the only religion that actually teach aggression. Naive? Kris, are we or are we not the same as those people?

How can you have any credibility in your statements when you don't even know the difference between the term 'muslim' and 'Islam'? A Muslim is a person who follows the religion of Islam. The teachings of Islam certainly do not teach aggression; you need to do some research before you start regurgitating what you heard from Rush Limbaugh on the radio this morning.

[Tangent]

I don't agree that Islam by its very nature is more violent than any other religion. Through history every religion I can think of (with the possible exception of Buddhism, but there are probably eaxmples there I haven't heard of) has been responsible for more than its fair share of brutality. The problem with any organized religion is that it's a perfect excuse for any atrocity you can think of. You want to kill group x that you don't like and your followers don't want to? Tell them that God said you should do it. Followers uncomfortable about commiting atrocities? Tell them that they will be richly rewarded by God.

Islam as a religion is getting a bad rap because there is a disproportionate number of Islam leaders that are corrupting its message to justify murder now. If Christianity was the prevalent religion in the middle east and the US was predominantly Islamic We'd most likely be in an identical situation with only the names of the religions reversed.

It's the people in the middle east that are the problem, not the religion. The religion just makes it easier for the people to justify their actions. If you were to study Islam you would find that just like Christianity it has strict rules aganst killing, but just like Christianity it also has passages that are easy to interpret as strict instructions to kill anyone not like you.

[bimmerphile]

I don't agree that Islam by its very nature is more violent than any other religion. Through history every religion I can think of (with the possible exception of Buddhism, but there are probably eaxmples there I haven't heard of) has been responsible for more than its fair share of brutality. The problem with any organized religion is that it's a perfect excuse for any atrocity you can think of. You want to kill group x that you don't like and your followers don't want to? Tell them that God said you should do it. Followers uncomfortable about commiting atrocities? Tell them that they will be richly rewarded by God.

Islam as a religion is getting a bad rap because there is a disproportionate number of Islam leaders that are corrupting its message to justify murder now. If Christianity was the prevalent religion in the middle east and the US was predominantly Islamic We'd most likely be in an identical situation with only the names of the religions reversed.

It's the people in the middle east that are the problem, not the religion. The religion just makes it easier for the people to justify their actions. If you were to study Islam you would find that just like Christianity it has strict rules aganst killing, but just like Christianity it also has passages that are easy to interpret as strict instructions to kill anyone not like you.

Very well said. No religion gives strict, implicit instructions to kill others. If there was, then they've been eradicated because they ended up killing enough people that they got themselves wiped out.

[Nitrox]

The saddest thing of all is that we try and convince ourselves that we're any different. There is nothing inherantly different between Iraqis and Americans; humans are humans. We're all capable of horrible things...

You could not have said it any better Ken.

I don't think this thread needs to exist anymore...

Sometimes the truth hurts. Does that mean we should abandon it?

[Sean]

Let me start off by saying, Ken - there's nothing wrong with Fox News or Rush - both are credible news sources and ones that I listen too - however, that's really beside the point.

He is right when he says - we are all the same. THERE ARE people in the US that are just as brutal as those over in Iraq - we are all humans, we all do the same thing. However, people like those in the US are usually stopped as soon as they make their first offense (have we not forgotten various cereal killers from the past? - they would cruelly kill random people, and we would eventually catch the criminal). Fact is - all humans can, and if they really want, do the same things. Religion really has nothing to do with it.

Also - Christianity, as I understand it, also states, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" - it has the same basic idea. But, as Kris stated, both Religions - or should I say all, are all against "killing." It's all about how it’s interpreted.

The terrorists over in Iraq are the ones giving the Muslims a bad name. There are the people against the US being there, and the ones that harbor them, and hug them in the streets. Why?? Because they LOVE freedom! (Let me also state, Kris - Although you are right by saying we'd be angry if another country invaded the US and tried to change things. But, you must realize - Saddam Hussein murdered his people, and did whatever the hell he wanted. People there were not free. The people that DID support him are basically the ones against the US being there now - they may not be terrorists, but they are harboring terrorism)

Although it may not have been a direct source, and rather a second-hand source, I did in fact hear from my brother that his friend's relative, who's serving in Iraq now, has been happily greeted - and pretty much praised by Iraqi citizens. What we see all the time are the groups continually setting back the progress that Iraqi's and the US Coalition are making - there are terrorist bombs daily.

I feel like I'm getting a bit off track, and rambling now however.

Point is, I agree with Ken on the fact that we can all do terrible things and that religion is just a sorry excuse for all of this - it’s all about how a holy document is interpreted.

Tangent, although his names leads otherwise ;), seem right on the dot, in my perspective. I am pretty much agreeing with everything he says.

Not all Iraqis are bad - it's just that the BAD - terrorist harboring Iraq's - are the ones getting all the airtime in both US and Arab media stations, therefore the image is warped - and we forget about the good, peace loving people that are JUST like us and want to live a life of freedom - away from terrorism and problems. (Please don't think I'm some peace loving hippy - all I'm saying is - there are people that just want freedom over there)

I may have forgotten to mention something, but I'm tired anyway. ;)



Oh - this thread shouldn't be closed. Now it's pretty much just a discussion - calm discussion on what's going on. Gives us all chance to learn each other's views, and maybe see things from a different perspective.