If you were spending 7K on a new NA M20 engine

[rThor432]

http://r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=71055

Well that's nice, but I still havent seen your dyno sheet. Where is it?

[eric (^__^)]

If I were spending $7k on a motor, I would like it to be attached to a car.

Unless it was a TODA or something

[SamE30e]

Just boost it.. Sounds cooler, more bang for buck.

But a n/a 200+hp M20 would be pretty bad ass, just make sure you go with itb's for baller factor.

[nando]

how i would build it:
86mm pistons, 84mm crank
dbilas 293 cam, HD springs
PPF rockers (or save money and have new Febi rockers worked over)
+1mm valves (you can get them cheaper than OE). Alternatively, have the stock valves back-cut and multi-angle ground.
*light* porting of exhaust port, light smoothing of intake port and polishing combustion chamber/exhaust ports.
good long tube headers, 2.5" single exhaust
spend the rest on EMS - preferrably something MAP based, although MAF may be easier with the wild cam. ditch the cap/rotor, sequential injection. there's a guy with that cam on youtube and it sounds insane up to 7500rpm.

ITBs are a waste of money, you'd be better off building your own intake manifold designed with your goals for torque and HP curves in mind. if all you want is a 7k redline/200hp the stock manifold works just fine.

or, you could just turbo it. you don't even have to spend that much and you can have an easy, reliable 300whp. There are so many products and kits out there on the market for the M20 it's nothing like trying to build everything from scratch like you had to 5 years ago. Even standalone EMS is much easier to deal with.

[Mtriple]

Now, if you're still leaning towards building an M20 with that $7K burning a hole in your pocket, find yourself a lower mileage "i" spec M20B25 motor, rebuild the head, toss in some new gaskets, main seals, etc. then slap on a turbo kit from Turbocharging Dynamics. Stage 1 low boost set up makes 240hp & 240 torques for ~$3,900. Stage 2 has higher boost, output & price. 300hp, 300ft/lb, ~$5,200

Jon

Agreed, and I'm coming from a pretty well built S50. This time around I went with a TCD stage 2 kit.

[silversleeper]

If I had 7k to spend on a NA M20, and it had to be NA, and a M20 at that, one thing I would definitely make sure to buy are the billet rockers that are avail in that current group buy.

[TDE30]

http://www.drvanos.com/

-Charlie

True. But the torque difference is rather minimal. Non-VANOS motors are notorious for their overall durability, and hold up to FI applications significantly better than the M50TU motors. Also, non-VANOS motors have hotter cams and thicker valve stems. The M50's may not have the low-end torque of the M50TU's, but they are probably one of the more durable motors BMW had. Sure the Dr. VANOS kit may be a miniscule ~$400, but I'd rather stick with the motor that boasts a better long-term longevity.

[DCColegrove]

Build a 2 liter M42.

[markseven]

Yank the AC, ditch the unnecessary oil cooler & condensors up front and the front firewall insulation, and you're almost at a wash weightwise.

I would, but it's my DD and temps go past 100 in the summer.

You honestly think a NA 3.1 M20 making 240 hp isn't going to be "high strung"?

Do it yourself, it builds character. I'm mechanically retarded, and I handled a swap on my own (mostly).

Haha, I like that, however, a man must know his limits. I don't think I can do it. Plus, I don't have the space.

You said you wanted reliable. An S50 is 240 HP out of the box, can be had installed for 7k, and is definitely reliable. No rocker arms to snap, no timing belt to break, no valves to adjust, no distributor, etc.

You make a strong case...

Hopping into a 7+k project "you can't really afford" doesn't seem too wise with a newborn.

Why ya gotta go there? ;) :-D

-Charlie

what makes you think you need coilovers for an s50/s52 swap? it isn't that much extra weight.

80lbs., correct? What are swappers that track their car doing to counteract the extra weight? I don't want to lose the nimbleness.

if you want a reliable high hp, a twincam swap is going to be a lot more reliable than a built m20. the m20 is old tech - timing belt, 12v head, single cam. the twincam is a much better, smoother motor and is a great way to get lots of reliable power in the e30.
find one local and have the owner take you for a spin. i can almost guarantee you'll be scouring craiglist for a s52 motor that night.

Argh! and I thought I had settled on the stroked M20.

in all honesty... I think you shouldn't listen to the "get s50" guys... I LOVE the SOUND OF M20!! I can't imagine it sounding with ITB's nice headers, catless+brullen muffler, nice cam and somewhere in the 2.9L range... sunch an unrefined, raw, loud, girgling m20! I love listening to the video where Jordan gets to drive his e30 for second or first time, where he is checking brakes... that sounds awesome!

For 7K you can definately make m20 to be a nicer enginethan it already is!

A hardcore M20 fan. I love it!

Guys, he wants to build an M20. The power:cost ratio might suck balls, but its what he wants. I say go for it, so long as I can give it a whirl. HAHA

I am being swayed. As much as I would like an M20, the benefits of the S50 are hard to deny.

AKG Motorsports has the same thing for 1/2 the price.

Nice - Thanks for the info :-D

Now, if you're still leaning towards building an M20 with that $7K burning a hole in your pocket, find yourself a lower mileage "i" spec M20B25 motor, rebuild the head, toss in some new gaskets, main seals, etc. then slap on a turbo kit from Turbocharging Dynamics. Stage 1 low boost set up makes 240hp & 240 torques for ~$3,900. Stage 2 has higher boost, output & price. 300hp, 300ft/lb, ~$5,200

No turbo for me. I am not experienced enough to manage boost on track. Otherwise, I would go that route.

However, if it were me, I'd go S50/S52. Plenty of naturally aspirated ponies and no more complex than the good ol' M20.

Jon

If I were spending $7k on a motor, I would like it to be attached to a car.

Unless it was a TODA or something

Haha, yeah...

But a n/a 200+hp M20 would be pretty bad ass, just make sure you go with itb's for baller factor.

Werd, but no ITB's. Gotta keep it as cost effective and simple as possible.

how i would build it:
86mm pistons, 84mm crank
dbilas 293 cam, HD springs
PPF rockers (or save money and have new Febi rockers worked over)
+1mm valves (you can get them cheaper than OE). Alternatively, have the stock valves back-cut and multi-angle ground.
*light* porting of exhaust port, light smoothing of intake port and polishing combustion chamber/exhaust ports.
good long tube headers, 2.5" single exhaust
spend the rest on EMS - preferrably something MAP based, although MAF may be easier with the wild cam. ditch the cap/rotor, sequential injection. there's a guy with that cam on youtube and it sounds insane up to 7500rpm.

ITBs are a waste of money, you'd be better off building your own intake manifold designed with your goals for torque and HP curves in mind. if all you want is a 7k redline/200hp the stock manifold works just fine.

or, you could just turbo it. you don't even have to spend that much and you can have an easy, reliable 300whp. There are so many products and kits out there on the market for the M20 it's nothing like trying to build everything from scratch like you had to 5 years ago. Even standalone EMS is much easier to deal with.

Cool, thanks for the advice. I will keep this in mind :D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am once again exposing my noob:

If I go with an S50,

What kind of 0-60 times can I expect with a stock-curb-weight 325is? I know I will spank E36 M's all day long, how's bout E46 M3's?

Is a 3:46 LSD the right rear end?

How should I address the added weight? I am currently very happy with my suspension (H&R Race, Billy's, RD Sways, Dinan CP's).

How much $$ can I get for a healthy, complete M20 with 50K on it?

How do you guys feel about a Euro S50B30? 286 crank HP.

Thanks for ALL of the responses!

[e30s52]

an s50 e30 will beat an e46 m3

[markseven]

an s50 e30 will beat an e46 m3

Done. It's a done deal.

[Van Westervelt]

I have shown a few, "what was up" ... Here is a lil taste during a drive with several e46 m3's. ;)

Notice where everyone went?! lol

[Jon325i]

How do you guys feel about a Euro S50B30? 286 crank HP.

Cool engine, but pricy. You can get the same kind of output from a '96-'99 M3 motor (S52B32) once you've swapped over the proper bits to a OBD I configuration which allows you to plug it into an E30. Without any other mods, this engine is good for ~275hp. I have a friend with one of these engines in a E30 plus he upgraded the cams so he's just surpassing the 300hp mark now.

As for your concern of offsetting the added weight to the front from a twin cam swap, you can do a few things to help although you stated you need AC so that's not a consideration (but if you did, the entire system takes over 60lbs off the nose). Perhaps a lightweight fiberglass hood in place of the metal one - that's gotta save at least 25-30 lbs I would suspect.

Jon

[Mulholland]

you're talking 80lbs... and it's a daily driver. 80 more pounds won't even be noticable when you're talking about the kind of jump in power output you are looking at either way. No matter what suspension setup you were running, it's going to feel very very different after you crank up the hp/tq. And you could always go with a fiberglass/cf hood or get some fiberglass fenders made for you. The hood is higher up so technically that weight has more of an effect. If anything though you really neede to be saying "my suspension would need to be reworked to hadle the extra power os an s52 swap" not "the 80lbs." that you're entirely over obsessing about.

[92 mtechnic cabrio]

M50 swaps are carb legal in california

maybe S50s too