First OFFICIAL TWINCHARGED M20 BUILD

[325Drew]

This sounds like it will be amazing!

[Denny]

Can anybody shim in on this Monster Borg Warner turbo... :) for this price I may just buy it now!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-BHT3B-Turbocharger-for-cummins-or-compound-turbo-kit-HT3B-Borg-Warner-/290790314422?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b47411b6&vxp=mtr

Its a BHT3B BUT can I spool it?

[Denny]

also found this

Turbo------CFM----Racing HP-----Daily HP inducer
HX35-------574------420----------330------ 56
TP38-------767
HX40-------763------560----------440------60
T66---------800-------560----------440-----66
GTP38R----897
B1----------900-------630----------495
H2E---------868------700----------550
HX50------1000-----700-----------550-----63,67
HX55-------1050------735----------578-----67
HT3B-------1085------770----------605-----76
GT42-------1302----------------------------75
T76--------1350------945----------743------76
HT60------1400------980----------770
B2,s400---1500------1050---------825-----75
GT47-------------------------------------------80
HX60-------1550------1085---------853
TV81-------1600----------------------------85
T88--------1750-------1225--------963-----88
HT4B-------1800------1260---------990
Big Brother-1900----1330--------1045-----87
T91---------2000------1400--------1100-----91
HC5A/HX82-2450----1715--------1348
T100------2600-----1820--------1430-----100
T105-----2900------2030--------1595------105

[Denny]

I\m reading discussions on what way would be best and now am leaning towards:

turbo outlet ----> Supercharger Inlet

[kalib0y]

Subbed!

[mrcheezle19]

subididub

[Denny]

More research is leading me to believe that I really should twincharge with the turbo feeding the Supercharger.

Here are more info taken from famous hellion power systems (twincharge systems for V8 muscle cars)
---------------------
Q: Is the Supercharger a Restriction?

A: No, not at all. The supercharger is not a stagnant, solid piece that air has to travel around or through. Rather, the supercharger is simply doing what it does, and that's take air and essentially make it smaller. The supercharger will simply take the air that has been compressed by the turbochargers and further compress it as it travels into the engine. In fact, the turbochargers will basically help to improve the overall efficiency of the supercharger. Roots and screw-type superchargers experience a condition known as "back flow." Back flow refers to air that doesn't make it into the engine when it is compressed, and actually comes back up into the intake tract. This air is heated, and is the cause of the loud noise heard from positive displacement superchargers. When the turbos are added in conjunction with the supercharger, they help to keep the airflow directional, minimizing the amount and effect of the back flow. Also, it's important to remember that boost itself is actually a measure of restriction, so to speak. The number that we read as "boost" is positive manifold pressure, or the byproduct of the engine only being able to flow a certain amount of air through it at any given time. The air that is being forced into the engine will eventually overcome the amount of air that the engine can ingest during every revolution, and the resulting "back up" of air is positive manifold pressure, or boost. Therefore, by using the supercharger to create a higher level of pressure, it cannot be viewed as a restriction.
Q: How Come the Turbos Alone Will Make More Peak Power at the Same Boost Level Then?

A: As previously stated, the turbochargers are the more efficient power adder (supercharger vs. turbo). In the compound setups, the turbo boost level is limited because the air will be compressed again by the supercharger. Therefor, 20psi of compounded boost will only be about 8 psi from the turbos and 8-9 psi from the supercharger. This means that you will see peak power characteristics that reflect the amount of turbo boost present, with low-end power characteristics of a supercharger. The total boost number is somewhat irrelevant. If we use the turbos only to create 20psi, they are in a more efficient airflow range, but will lack the low-end power of the supercharger. Also, the turbo combinations with lack the mechanical losses, however minimal they may be, which will lead to slightly higher peak power numbers.
Q: What are the Real Benefits of the Compound Boost Setup?

A: The real world benefit of a compound boost setup is average power and driveability. With the compound setup, you can still have the instant boost and low-end grunt of a supercharger, but the addition of the turbochargers will allow for a much more efficient and powerful top-end. This is referred to as "power under the curve." The average amount of power that we are able to produce with the compound systems will provide better driveability while still producing hair-raising amounts of power. Here's a quick example of how to think about it:
Let's say that we have a car that makes 1,000 hp peak, but only makes 500 - 1,000 hp for around 3,000 rpm. Now, we have another car that makes 900 hp peak, but makes 500-900 hp for 5,000 rpm. If we use a linear progression of power to calculate the average power through 5,000 RPM, the second car in question would have an average power output of about 700 hp through 5,000 rpm, whereas the first car mentioned would only have an average output of about 550 - 600 hp through 5,000 rpm. Using this equation, the first car in question has a higher peak power output, however the second car will most likely out-accelerate it due to the fact that it makes more average power over the same RPM range.
------------------------------------------------



I will draw and scan what my setup would look like and go from there to see what turbo size I should use(room allowed) and how much boost I can use max on my M20, size the new injectors correctly, etc...



In parallel build and install/configure my new DYIPNP MS setup.

[Denny]

MEGASQUIRT HAS ARRIVED! :) time to get busy

quick pics of my dirty E30 in the garage.. (for the pic whores..:)

[tinkwithanr]

Thanks for posting the above info. I never really thought about it, but it does make sense to run the turbo into the supercharger.

[TheTacoMan]

I would consider reading Maximum boost, it has alot of the equations to calculate exactly what you need. Im about 120 pages in and its very interesting.
You can download from a few different places for free.

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606

[Denny]

Thanks for posting the above info. I never really thought about it, but it does make sense to run the turbo into the supercharger.

The more I read the more It makes sense to go that route... the extra exhaust Air the Supercharger makes a low end will spool the turbo a lot faster too for a double shot of low end torque and big up top power...cant wait to get started.

I would consider reading Maximum boost, it has alot of the equations to calculate exactly what you need. Im about 120 pages in and its very interesting.
You can download from a few different places for free.

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-.../dp/0837601606

Thanks! got the book... I will have to invest some time reading it... I read and loved the supercharged! book by corky helped me big time building my supercharger setup. Just wish somebody made a book on twincharging

[downforce22]

I disagree with the statement a few posts up that the supercharger is not a restriction. Though it does not restrict the flow of air it does take power produced by the engine to turn the pulley of the blower. This can be on the order of 25 hp. Of course the gains you see from the compressed air are much more than twice the losses, but the principle is the same. I am not sure I would take the information or other information from the source you posted above to be 100% accurate.

Here is a great link that discusses air flow and some theoretical situations that you can experiment with. The equations are not hard, do not be afraid to calculate for your application. I also would use this as a basis with some turbo maps.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...Tech%20103.pdf

Once you find the an approximate of the necessary air flow for this build here are some maps of different turbos to compare.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

[Denny]

I disagree with the statement a few posts up that the supercharger is not a restriction. Though it does not restrict the flow of air it does take power produced by the engine to turn the pulley of the blower. This can be on the order of 25 hp. Of course the gains you see from the compressed air are much more than twice the losses, but the principle is the same. I am not sure I would take the information or other information from the source you posted above to be 100% accurate.

Here is a great link that discusses air flow and some theoretical situations that you can experiment with. The equations are not hard, do not be afraid to calculate for your application. I also would use this as a basis with some turbo maps.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...Tech%20103.pdf

Once you find the an approximate of the necessary air flow for this build here are some maps of different turbos to compare.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

thanks for the info :)

I think not 100% sure that when they meant restriction I think they meant a restriction for the turbo to blow compressed air threw it.

Biggest problem right now is calculating a turbo size (that with the 2.5L motor and added 1L of air from the Supercharger) would be able to spool the turbo to take over from the Supercharger at around 4500RPM (the SC torque peaks there and stays there but horsepower drops freefall at that point) all this to achieve a rather seemless take over of power without it feeling like Nitrous just kicked in LOL...

theres also the mystery of do I blow threw the charger and intercool the very very hot air once or go with an intercooler like this that takes the turbo and Supercharger at the same time and cools both....?



so many decisions...very exciting project!

**Link doesnt work -->http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...Tech%20103.pdf

[downforce22]

Not sure why the link didn't work. Here it is again


Click here for link

It looks like the intercooler you posted above does 2 into 1?? I would suggest two intercoolers with the most surface area possible. One after the super charger before the turbo and one after the turbo before the intake if possible. Space constraints would be tough but if you could do it where the AC stuff that would be best in my opinion to compress the most air. Make sure they both had frontal area to fresh air, above one another, not in front of one another.

Both compressors will add significant heat to the charge air. If you can't fit two, I would get the best intercooler I could find, large surface area and plumb it back from the turbo to the throttle body.

[tinkwithanr]

If you used an intercooler that takes in the turbo and supercharger output how would the charge pipes be run? It looks like that intercooler is meant for a V engine with a turbo on each bank and then a singe air inlet. Unless your not planning to run the turbo into the supercharger or vise versa.