E30 #2: 1990 Delphin: RHD ITB M20

[318aye]

Those look like 24v injectors

They are, Reichart was kind enough to pass them off for $10 so I could try them out.

How much am I botching the combustion by using a 4V spray pattern in a 2V head?

I may look into other options when the new motor starts coming together.

[digger]

no idea, will likely have bigger impact on fuel consumption or part throttle than WOT power if there is any difference

[318aye]

no idea, will likely have bigger impact on fuel consumption or part throttle than WOT power if there is any difference

I was planning on having my tuner work on the cold start anyway, so I'm going to put these in and see what happens when I'm not at 100% duty cycle at 5800 RPM.

[spike68]

18K.

[/IMG]

Just lie to me and say that number is made up and its not actually the cost of build. I want to do ITBs one day on my vert. Please dont make me cry.

[318aye]

Just lie to me and say that number is made up and its not actually the cost of build. I want to do ITBs one day on my vert. Please dont make me cry.

No, the rough figures on the ITB's are:

700 - MS Setup (Whodwho PNP + Sensors, etc)
1400 - ITB's
400 - Airbox
1300 - Exhaust (Longtubes + Shop Cost of 2.5" Stainless fabrication)

If you do everything in chunks (I did exhaust first, then MS, then ITB's, then box) there's no downtime and you can enjoy each phase.

Thanks to Reichart for more great pictures from the event.

20160521-DSC_0120 by Nick Reichart, on Flickr

20160521-DSC_0204 by Nick Reichart, on Flickr

20160521-DSC_0305 by Nick Reichart, on Flickr

20160521-DSC_0309 by Nick Reichart, on Flickr

[lambo]

Do you have an instagram?

[318aye]

Yeah. I think I found you?

[318aye]

Haven't gotten to fiddle with the car much recently. Got it running on the 21# pink tops. Modified the reqfuel and injector constants, and off we went. No issues driving, but I do want to get back to my tuner for some cold start changes and to see if it has any more top end left now that we can control the fuel.

Parked it after driving one day and noticed the front edge of the box had been rubbing slightly, where Kam cut his hood out. :hitler::hitler::hitler:
I cranked on the driver's side motor mount and gave the underside of the hood structure a SLIGHT tap or two with a rubber mallet. Can't tell from underneath, and I think I'm back to 2.5mm clearance. Still don't know wtf happened.

Took the car out to the ZMax Auto-X, had fun as usual. Car still really needs bars to make the Eibach's respond, it is very undersprung currently.

Recently acquired an S52 crank, rods and oil seal spacer for a reasonable deal locally. This will kick off the 3.1 build I guess. Going to be a while on the other components, John (Forced Firebird) is guiding me through the headwork currently. Other major piece of the puzzle is a Schrick 288, I'll probably be in the market for quite some time.

Other than that, car is still a blast to drive. Looking forward to slightly less bodyroll and slighly more torque :).

[digger]

yeah Forced Firebird (John from WOT-Tech) is the man to goto. nice big valve inlet valves on the head, throat adjusted to suit, de-shrouded, reprofiled short side and bowl to suit....

the more i do some simulations on the big strokers the more it seems you can never have enough curtain area (mach numbers in valve curtain area are very high at high rpm) and with the modest practical limitations in lift (~13mm with RHD roller profiles) a big valve is all thats left without getting to silly cam duration numbers which hurt just as much as they help. 44mm and 36mm valve combo works well, id do this over 43/37mm as the inlet needs the area more than the exhaust

[BlackbirdM3]

Wow, this has been quite a build! Did you ever figure out a good solution for the air filter? If not, have you seen this? Its for an S14, but it should still work.http://www.massivebrakes.com/accesso...14_FilterPanel

I don't know if the hole is in the radiator core support for the intake duct that the M3 uses, but the pickup is behind the bumper, and would draw only cold air into the system.

After listening to your video clips I gotta say your car sound fantastic. It also sounds like a Datsun 240Z with triple Mikuni carbs on it. (not a bad thing at all. :) ) I look forward to seeing what your 3.1L build sounds like.

Will

[318aye]

yeah Forced Firebird (John from WOT-Tech) is the man to goto. nice big valve inlet valves on the head, throat adjusted to suit, de-shrouded, reprofiled short side and bowl to suit....

the more i do some simulations on the big strokers the more it seems you can never have enough curtain area (mach numbers in valve curtain area are very high at high rpm) and with the modest practical limitations in lift (~13mm with RHD roller profiles) a big valve is all thats left without getting to silly cam duration numbers which hurt just as much as they help. 44mm and 36mm valve combo works well, id do this over 43/37mm as the inlet needs the area more than the exhaust

It's like you guys are a hivemind, this was his recommendation as well. We were debating just going +1 on the intake side for cost reasons (this will take long enough with current specs, not trying to exacerbate the budget issues), I'll see what his take on +2 is. Looking forward to learning from him.

Wow, this has been quite a build! Did you ever figure out a good solution for the air filter? If not, have you seen this? Its for an S14, but it should still work.http://www.massivebrakes.com/accesso...14_FilterPanel

I don't know if the hole is in the radiator core support for the intake duct that the M3 uses, but the pickup is behind the bumper, and would draw only cold air into the system.

After listening to your video clips I gotta say your car sound fantastic. It also sounds like a Datsun 240Z with triple Mikuni carbs on it. (not a bad thing at all. :) ) I look forward to seeing what your 3.1L build sounds like.

Will

I did not yet, I think i'm going to end up having a negative done and somehow seal off the whole driver's headlight area in carbon. We shall see.

I believe the Massive bracket is S14 specific, i.e. the 4 cyl radiator as well. I explored those options earlier, but the 6 cyl radiators all occupy the space where the Massive kit and other DTM airbox inlets live.

Thanks for the kind words! I certainly wouldn't turn down an L24/Mikuni combo. It'll be a while, but I think the 3.1 will be perfect in this car.

[ForcedFirebird]

They are, Reichart was kind enough to pass them off for $10 so I could try them out.

How much am I botching the combustion by using a 4V spray pattern in a 2V head?

I may look into other options when the new motor starts coming together.

no idea, will likely have bigger impact on fuel consumption or part throttle than WOT power if there is any difference

yeah Forced Firebird (John from WOT-Tech) is the man to goto. nice big valve inlet valves on the head, throat adjusted to suit, de-shrouded, reprofiled short side and bowl to suit....

the more i do some simulations on the big strokers the more it seems you can never have enough curtain area (mach numbers in valve curtain area are very high at high rpm) and with the modest practical limitations in lift (~13mm with RHD roller profiles) a big valve is all thats left without getting to silly cam duration numbers which hurt just as much as they help. 44mm and 36mm valve combo works well, id do this over 43/37mm as the inlet needs the area more than the exhaust

I haven't found an issue with using the fogger or multi nozzle injectors, the multi nozzle actually tends to idle better, but doubt there would be much of a measurable power difference. The only time we had an issue with injectors was when running them past duty cycle - some really wig out, some don't care as much. IT was cool sticking the (customer provided 19lb) injectors from the ITB build we did recently and see why they ran out of steam. Anything close to 80% and they were just spraying a light mist. Those pink tops will work fine for you, and should spray enough.

I agree with Digger on the larger intake valve as the m20 head already favors exhaust. As we discussed in emails, my suggestion for balance between budget and power, go with the +1mm intakes, as +2mm is going to require seat pockets enlarged and larger seats installed. Save that and just do a quality rebuild, port/flow, and fresh guides so you can keep your valve lash a little on the tight side. With your cam, a 3.1l (make sure to keep the stock dome for quench), the 288 cam and a decent head you should see your 240-ish hp goals. We did 217whp/202wtq with a 2.8 @9.5:1 with light porting, +1mm I&E, and only a 272 cam (ran out of steam well before 7k).

There might be more, but somehow I haven't been subscribed to your thread and have to keep reading back.

[BlackbirdM3]

It's like you guys are a hivemind, this was his recommendation as well. We were debating just going +1 on the intake side for cost reasons (this will take long enough with current specs, not trying to exacerbate the budget issues), I'll see what his take on +2 is. Looking forward to learning from him.



I did not yet, I think i'm going to end up having a negative done and somehow seal off the whole driver's headlight area in carbon. We shall see.

I believe the Massive bracket is S14 specific, i.e. the 4 cyl radiator as well. I explored those options earlier, but the 6 cyl radiators all occupy the space where the Massive kit and other DTM airbox inlets live.

Thanks for the kind words! I certainly wouldn't turn down an L24/Mikuni combo. It'll be a while, but I think the 3.1 will be perfect in this car.

I didn't know there was much of a difference between the radiators. Yes, the Massive bracket is for the S14, but flow wise, I'd bet a stock S14 will still outflow a stock M20 (yes, more cylinders, but smaller volume, the S14 still has 4 more intake valves than an M20 does) I wonder if an s14 radiator would cool well enough? (Run a cooler thermostat as well as some water wetter) Sure, in traffic the auxiliary fan would be running, but I'd have to guess it wouldn't be running too hot. 2.5 liters is still 2.5 liters be it 4 or 6 cyl.) If there is room, perhaps one of the aftermarket aluminum S14 radiators would be the way to go?

Heck, even if you could run a stock EVO3 airbox and inlet that would flow well. I'm not sure if there is anything in the way, but it might be worth exploring.

Will

[318aye]

I haven't found an issue with using the fogger or multi nozzle injectors, the multi nozzle actually tends to idle better, but doubt there would be much of a measurable power difference. The only time we had an issue with injectors was when running them past duty cycle - some really wig out, some don't care as much. IT was cool sticking the (customer provided 19lb) injectors from the ITB build we did recently and see why they ran out of steam. Anything close to 80% and they were just spraying a light mist. Those pink tops will work fine for you, and should spray enough.

I agree with Digger on the larger intake valve as the m20 head already favors exhaust. As we discussed in emails, my suggestion for balance between budget and power, go with the +1mm intakes, as +2mm is going to require seat pockets enlarged and larger seats installed. Save that and just do a quality rebuild, port/flow, and fresh guides so you can keep your valve lash a little on the tight side. With your cam, a 3.1l (make sure to keep the stock dome for quench), the 288 cam and a decent head you should see your 240-ish hp goals. We did 217whp/202wtq with a 2.8 @9.5:1 with light porting, +1mm I&E, and only a 272 cam (ran out of steam well before 7k).

There might be more, but somehow I haven't been subscribed to your thread and have to keep reading back.

Good to know on the injectors. I wasn't really thinking about it when Reichart offered them to me. I was out of injector around 5800 rpm iirc, hoping to get on the dyno again with the 21's in the coming weeks.

The seat pocket change seals the deal for me on the intake valves. Any thoughts you want to share in this venue on IE vs. Supertech vs. ??? on valve selection?

I'll keep you posted via email when I get my donor motor, scouting local sources now.

I didn't know there was much of a difference between the radiators. Yes, the Massive bracket is for the S14, but flow wise, I'd bet a stock S14 will still outflow a stock M20 (yes, more cylinders, but smaller volume, the S14 still has 4 more intake valves than an M20 does) I wonder if an s14 radiator would cool well enough? (Run a cooler thermostat as well as some water wetter) Sure, in traffic the auxiliary fan would be running, but I'd have to guess it wouldn't be running too hot. 2.5 liters is still 2.5 liters be it 4 or 6 cyl.) If there is room, perhaps one of the aftermarket aluminum S14 radiators would be the way to go?

Heck, even if you could run a stock EVO3 airbox and inlet that would flow well. I'm not sure if there is anything in the way, but it might be worth exploring.

Will

Yup, the radiators are a few inches narrower.

Are you referring to radiator flow or intake flow (M20 vs. S14)? "More cylinders, but smaller volume" is confusing, stock S14's are 2.3L?

I had not previously considered going to an S14 aftermarket radiator, it would be something worth considering provided that we could increase the core thickness a bit.

The S14 evo boxes that I've seen all have integrated runners...4 cyl != 6 cyl. Elaborate more a bit, I think I'm missing something.

[digger]

supertec are nice, id use them over IE. lighter to

Inlet: black is ST far right is IE



Exh: ST inconel 2nd left IE far right