Canadian Health Care? Is it really like this?

[Turf1600]

Well in the end, there are still private clinics available for the people that would like to go that route. I think it is a good system for people that really have nothing at all. Also, accidents happen all the time in private medicine so the criticism from the french speaking lady is irrelevant.

How are you not grasping that government run insurance plans are jacking up the cost of healthcare for everyone else?

[Pinepig]

How are you not grasping that government run insurance plans are jacking up the cost of healthcare for everyone else?

Dude, you are asking Holmes how he is not grasping 1+1=2.

Personally I'm surprised the boy remembers to breathe.

[quickervicar]

Our system is broken, but it can be fixed. It needs to be tweaked, not scrapped. My sister is a GP doctor. She spends more time on the phone & filing paperwork with the insurance companies than she does actually treating patients. It's a shame.

As an employer, I am very tired (and almost broke) seeing my premiums go up an average of 18% each year. This past renewal we saw an increase of 52% because we had a higher claims rate last year. I can't afford to pay my employees any more because I'm already giving them a 'raise' of between $75-125/wk. except that they never see it (and don't quite grasp that intangible asset). How much higher can/will it go?

Bottom line: administrative costs & legal fees are making up a majority of the high costs in the U.S. healthcare system. Something needs to change, but a totally government (tax) - based system is not the way to go. I've seen government housing & I don't want to see what politicians will do to healthcare.

[Pac1373]

Health care in Canada works like this; your paycheck has a deduction debited from it, he cost is low compared to US rates, for instance my Family with wife and 4 kids, runs about $90- $100 bucks a month. it varies from province to province, Alberta is highest usually, Ontario at one time anyway, was free, some I think still are. as a percentage of income, it is insignificant for the most part. you don't miss it.

When we are injured or ill, we can at our choosing go to a hospital ER for treatment, or if not a total douche (which you are for using ER space if you are not in dire need of it's service) go to a clinic, medi-center (private clinic, run for profit, billed to your provincial healthcare account and no, you don't get a bill for it) or alas, the old Family GP...
lots of options, services range on location as everywhere; butt-fuck nowhere does not have the level of medical service as say Edmonton, Vancouver, Toronto etc, but I doubt that is any different from our southern friends.

you can wait in an ER for hours, no doubt, if you are not in dire need of attention, the people who are go first, imagine that, Triage, what a horrid concept.
if lots of people get hurt, become ill, then the wait is longer. easy.

*Most* hospitals have all the fancy hocus pocus like MRI units and what not, crazy voodoo that it is, and if you are an emergency patient, you get to use it right away, if not, you will have to wait your turn.You make an appointment(with your doctor), and wait, there will be exceptions made almost certainly again, for people with greater need (OMG the audacity) Smaller centers may have to transfer critical cases to major centers

the thing is, there are many things people like to whinge about and do, but in so much as the horror stories many of my American friends tell me about their issues with their healthcare insurance companies, limit to where they can seek treatment, and the amount of sheer $$$$ as a percentage of income they pay; there is nofuckingwayonearthIwouldtradeyouhealthcareevar!!1 1!1

we have a lack of doctors, and guess what, it is because U.S. doctors, make a SHITWAD of money, because, it is so expensive to be treated by one in the U.S.
guess where our doctors go to practice? it costs them MUCH less to obtain a MD here than it would cost you in the US, then they jump ship to the U.S. to make big bucks. Nice...I love it. (Sarcasm high here)

I may be biased, but being financially ruined because I am infected by a virus, or break my arm does not interest me one bit. I love my good ole socialist/commie government health care. And as far as I know, Alberta is the only place that has really been pushing for "private" health care, it is however currently illegal here to offer 2 tiers of health care.

P.s. I did not watch the video, and this is only a dab into Canadian health care, it is not perfect, but in my opinion, it is so far ahead of what you guys have to deal with that it boggles the mind to think about it.

Now we should all be so lucky as the French, but that is another story.

[quickervicar]

Health care in Canada works like this; your paycheck has a deduction debited from it, he cost is low compared to US rates, for instance my Family with wife and 4 kids, runs about $90- $100 bucks a month. it varies from province to province, Alberta is highest usually, Ontario at one time anyway, was free, some I think still are. as a percentage of income, it is insignificant for the most part. you don't miss it.

I appreciate your input on this. Just one question: how can Ontario offer free health care?

[mrsleeve]

As an employer, I am very tired (and almost broke) seeing my premiums go up an average of 18% each year. This past renewal we saw an increase of 52% because we had a higher claims rate last year. I can't afford to pay my employees any more becauseI'm already giving them a 'raise' of between $75-125/wk. except that they never see it (and don't quite grasp that intangible asset). How much higher can/will it go?

.

Yes I know all about that from 2003-07 I did not seen my contractual 3-5% raise on my check, in my pension contributions and a loss of our Dental and vision to just cover the cost of keeping our Medical the same. I was grateful that our medical stayed good and had no issue with what we had to give up to keep it, as one trip to the doc or 1 accident can bankrupt you even with heath care.


And just in case it has not been mentioned in here

If you think heath care is expensive now, just wait till its free.

Some of you need to realize that, I dont remember who in this thread said "everyone goes off Net pay not gross" or something like that. Yes while thats how most people think its a flawed line of thinking as the more you take away by force of what people work for the less incentive they have to earn. The wheels will come off the entire system.

[mongule]

I don't know if its been mentioned,

But what about the fact that some US cities have the population of Canada as a whole.

On a smaller scale government programs already have trouble functioning,

I can only imagine what would happen in the states.

[Turf1600]

What's Canada's population?

EDIT - 32 million.

Maybe the sum of the 5 largest cities....

[nando]

the other key concept here is when things are free, people tend to use it more than they need to. Free ketchup and napkins and fast food restaraunts are a good example. You only need one napkin and maybe 4 packets of ketchup, but how often do you end up taking a 3/4" wad of napkins and as many ketchup containers as you can hold? and then throw away the excess.

Nobody goes to the doctor because they have a minor cold or got a small cut on their finger. But if it's free, why not go in and have a doctor look at it? You're completely wasting their time, but it doesn't matter to you.

[CorvallisBMW]

the other key concept here is when things are free, people tend to use it more than they need to. Free ketchup and napkins and fast food restaraunts are a good example. You only need one napkin and maybe 4 packets of ketchup, but how often do you end up taking a 3/4" wad of napkins and as many ketchup containers as you can hold? and then throw away the excess.

Nobody goes to the doctor because they have a minor cold or got a small cut on their finger. But if it's free, why not go in and have a doctor look at it? You're completely wasting their time, but it doesn't matter to you.

But you're wasting your own time too. No one is going to take an afternoon off work to see a doctor for a minor cold or cut finger....

But if you think that's the way it works, why don't you ask the Canadians here if they've ever done that? I bet I know what they're answer will be...

How are you not grasping that government run insurance plans are jacking up the cost of healthcare for everyone else?

Really? According to the WHO, we pay the highest total amount of money, and the highest per-capita rate for healthcare in the enitre world (yes, more than Canada and Britain and all those other 'socialized medicine' countires). Yet we rank 76th in overall healthcare when you factor in all the elements such as cost, availability, prevention, treatment, quality, cost of malpractice insurance, life expectancy, disease rates, etc...

So there are 75 other countries, with government run insurance, who receive better care, and pay less. Kind of makes your statement look kinda dumb, no?

You say that government-run insurance plans jack up the price of healthcare, yet we (who have no such system) have the highest healthcare costs be more than double the #2 country (which does have that system). Care to clarify your statement?

[nando]

But you're wasting your own time too. No one is going to take an afternoon off work to see a doctor for a minor cold or cut finger....

But if you think that's the way it works, why don't you ask the Canadians here if they've ever done that? I bet I know what they're answer will be...

like my wife? ;)

we also have a huge aging population, who have lived unhealthy lifestyles. 2/3 of our population is overweight and 1/3 is obese. That has to contribute somewhat to higher costs.

[Hallen]

Health care in Canada works like this; your paycheck has a deduction debited from it, he cost is low compared to US rates, for instance my Family with wife and 4 kids, runs about $90- $100 bucks a month. it varies from province to province, Alberta is highest usually, Ontario at one time anyway, was free, some I think still are. as a percentage of income, it is insignificant for the most part. you don't miss it.

When we are injured or ill, we can at our choosing go to a hospital ER for treatment, or if not a total douche (which you are for using ER space if you are not in dire need of it's service) go to a clinic, medi-center (private clinic, run for profit, billed to your provincial healthcare account and no, you don't get a bill for it) or alas, the old Family GP...
lots of options, services range on location as everywhere; butt-fuck nowhere does not have the level of medical service as say Edmonton, Vancouver, Toronto etc, but I doubt that is any different from our southern friends.

you can wait in an ER for hours, no doubt, if you are not in dire need of attention, the people who are go first, imagine that, Triage, what a horrid concept.
if lots of people get hurt, become ill, then the wait is longer. easy.

*Most* hospitals have all the fancy hocus pocus like MRI units and what not, crazy voodoo that it is, and if you are an emergency patient, you get to use it right away, if not, you will have to wait your turn.You make an appointment(with your doctor), and wait, there will be exceptions made almost certainly again, for people with greater need (OMG the audacity) Smaller centers may have to transfer critical cases to major centers

the thing is, there are many things people like to whinge about and do, but in so much as the horror stories many of my American friends tell me about their issues with their healthcare insurance companies, limit to where they can seek treatment, and the amount of sheer $$$$ as a percentage of income they pay; there is nofuckingwayonearthIwouldtradeyouhealthcareevar!!1 1!1

we have a lack of doctors, and guess what, it is because U.S. doctors, make a SHITWAD of money, because, it is so expensive to be treated by one in the U.S.
guess where our doctors go to practice? it costs them MUCH less to obtain a MD here than it would cost you in the US, then they jump ship to the U.S. to make big bucks. Nice...I love it. (Sarcasm high here)

I may be biased, but being financially ruined because I am infected by a virus, or break my arm does not interest me one bit. I love my good ole socialist/commie government health care. And as far as I know, Alberta is the only place that has really been pushing for "private" health care, it is however currently illegal here to offer 2 tiers of health care.

P.s. I did not watch the video, and this is only a dab into Canadian health care, it is not perfect, but in my opinion, it is so far ahead of what you guys have to deal with that it boggles the mind to think about it.

Now we should all be so lucky as the French, but that is another story.

I appreciate you point of view and think that what you say is true. I don't think that anybody is trying to say that the current US system is perfect and I am also not saying that the health care people in Canada suck or that there isn't some common sense being applied.

However, there are a few things to consider.
1) You may see how much comes out of your check that is dedicated to the health care system. What you don't see is the amount that is taken out as taxes that does go to the system too (plus for all the other social services that Canada provides). If you are taking home more than 50% of your gross pay and you live in Canada, you are doing good.

2) You blame the US for "stealing" Canadian doctors because they can come here and make the "big bucks". I don't doubt that it happens. But they really aren't making the big bucks, they're just making a lot more than they would up in Canada. Most GP and FP doctors don't make a huge amount of money here. They do pretty well, but they certainly don't get rich. Only the top dog specialists make the really big dollars (which in my opinion is commensurate with their skills).

However, I can pretty much guarantee that Canada wouldn't have wiz-bang MRI and other black magic machines to use if it weren't for the US. The technology development happens here (for the most part) and the US market buys enough of this stuff to drive the costs down where it is more widely available. Without that, I doubt you would have more than 5 MRI's in all of Canada right now.

So this kind of thing works both ways. Yes, I am sure Canadian doctors do come down here to work. But Canada also gets the benefit of the US pioneering and developing new and better medical technology.

(I also beleive that a lot of that pioneering would go away under a government run program. There will be little incentive to put money into something like that if there were little to no return)

For the US system, I said this before, but I don't think anybody who wants to make changes understands a damn thing about how all this stuff works, how much it really costs, why insurance rates are skyrocketing, why it costs $1500 for a 15 minute MRI session, etc. They just say its broken and start throwing parts at it to see if it fixes it. Pretty dumb, really.

[Hallen]

like my wife? ;)

we also have a huge aging population, who have lived unhealthy lifestyles. 2/3 of our population is overweight and 1/3 is obese. That has to contribute somewhat to higher costs.

Maybe, but like the fallacy that smokers cost a lot more, people with unhealthy lifestyles generally die younger and more quickly and therefore don't cost nearly as much to care for. Healthy people live a lot longer and will need continually greater amounts of care as they age. Those are the people who cost more. So the next time a politician wants to add another tax on cigarettes or fast food because they need to "pay" for the expected medical costs, you can tell them to piss off because it simply isn't true.

This does bring up another point about a government run program. It will lead to more rules and laws about what you can and cannot do because the "cost" to the medical system will be too high. They will tax hamburgers and pizza, they will tax you more if you don't have a regular exercise program supervised by a government representative, they'll ban anything that they want as long as they can call it a public health issue. (OK, it's a bit over the top, but it is a safe bet that it will happen)

There are certain, dependent type people who will see doctors as often as they can because that's the only place where people are forced to pay attention to them. You see it all the damn time. People who come in for no real reason just so they can get some attention. But most others won't go see the doctor any more than before even if we had a "free" health care system.

(Sorry for rambling. I'm bored here at work)

[Turf1600]

For the US system, I said this before, but I don't think anybody who wants to make changes understands a damn thing about how all this stuff works, how much it really costs, why insurance rates are skyrocketing, why it costs $1500 for a 15 minute MRI session, etc. They just say its broken and start throwing parts at it to see if it fixes it. Pretty dumb, really.

Just to be clear - a typical MRI lasts 45 minutes. Additionally, they don't cost $1500. Hospitals may bill that much but they don't get paid that much. Free standing clinics also cost a TON less than hospitals or hospital run outpatient imaging centers - like the one I work at. A person with no insurance will probably pay 4-900 depending on the MRI being performed and whether there is contrast involved. Guess what the shitty part is?

Here's the order of operations (as for as insurance authorizations are concerned) for diagnostic imaging (and their round about costs) - let's say for a cancer patient.

X-ray (or US, depending) $60
CT $400
MRI $900
PET CT $1500 (most of this charge is to cover the radioactive isotope)

Here's where it gets shitty. Almost every trauma patient in the ER gets a CT because of it's relative low costs. Generally, insurance companies won't do an MRI before a CT because it isn't proven "medically necessary". Guess what? A CT submits the patient to roughly the amount of radiation emitted by a neclear weapon or 4 years of natural radiation in a span of 15 minutes. In theory, the benefit vs cost of a CT renders it ineffective except in the case of severe medical conditions. This may leave you to rightfully ask - why is every trauma patient being submitted to this kind of unnecessary radiation? Because insurance companies won't cover a MRI. That is what's wrong with this system from a patient care perspective. That's why so many cancer patients have recurring cancer. It's fucking bullshit.

[Turf1600]

Maybe, but like the fallacy that smokers cost a lot more, people with unhealthy lifestyles generally die younger and more quickly and therefore don't cost nearly as much to care for. Healthy people live a lot longer and will need continually greater amounts of care as they age. Those are the people who cost more. So the next time a politician wants to add another tax on cigarettes or fast food because they need to "pay" for the expected medical costs, you can tell them to piss off because it simply isn't true.

Sorry - but this is not true. The reason people are living longer is because of advnces in healthcare. Healthy people don't cost more to maintain because they don't need maintaining - with the exception of issues not related to lifestyle choices (ie genetics)