Hilary plan vs. Obama plan

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kinda thought thats what I just said

The D's of today in general are a product of the Progressive movement of the post Civil war and reconstruction era. The progressive movement is the complete antithesis of the values and principals this nation was founded upon. This coupled with all the various versions of totalitarianism out there, is why we are on the road we are on. While on paper and from a standing on high point of view the Progressive platform sounds great, but in the real world it fails miserably.

The modern R's are just as bad and have just as much progressive in them as well, I am not into the My party is the only party and the only way. I am saying the the modern R's line up more with how and why this country was founded than the modern D's. Not to say they are all peaches and cream either, I dont blindly support one party or the other I make my own decisions and draw my own conclusions. Some thing I invite you to try rather than blindly swallowing the Koolaid of what ever flavor of day totalitarianism you subscribe to.

[eurotrashm20]

The wife and I decided to have her leave her job and come home to watch the kids which put us without insurance. Her employer paid all of the cost of her insurance and 75% of mine and the kids. We began shopping insurance before she left work and were AMAZED to find out that with comparable coverage we don't spend anymore now than the portion we were responsible for when she worked. On some accounts the new insurance is actually a bit better in areas that we use.

Drug companies are a major contributor to the rising costs of health care. I am sure that many of you know some young woman (usually pretty attractive) that is a drug rep. Any idea how much they make? I personally know 3 reps and wife knows 2 more ... all five make better than 125k/yr with a BS in BS which is to say they are the sharpest tools in the shed.

[johnwoo]

Drug companies are a major contributor to the rising costs of health care. I am sure that many of you know some young woman (usually pretty attractive) that is a drug rep. Any idea how much they make? I personally know 3 reps and wife knows 2 more ... all five make better than 125k/yr with a BS in BS which is to say they are the sharpest tools in the shed.

o how true it is. i've nvr seen an unattractive pharm/surgical sales rep. its so weird to see the companies send female reps for male physicians and male reps for the female physicians.

i know some really good reps that make close to 200k. i like to mess with the reps by asking all the off the wall questions that you can't get the answers from reading the pamphlets and watching them literally crap their pants and resort to what they know best which is bat their eye lashes or flirt.

[daniel]

if everyone could just never get sick, we would never have these problems.

[z31maniac]

We also rank dead last in preventable mortality among developed nations:

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

How much of this is related to a sedentary lifestyle and terrible diet? Much of the chronic illness in this country is directly related to those two things.

Not that we have a substandard health care system.

[Ral]

^^ I would be interested to know how much malpractice insurance is carried by physicians in those other countries you listed, Darrin. (I'm looking right now, so give me some time.) I would bet my M3 (hypothetically) that malpractice insurance is one reason we pay so much for health care in this country. Not the only one, but definitely a big reason.

[eurotrashm20]

How much of this is related to a sedentary lifestyle and terrible diet? Much of the chronic illness in this country is directly related to those two things.

Not that we have a substandard health care system.

Could not agree more!! My wife's grandparents are farmers in Iowa and are some of the most healthy people I know!! They have been eating food off their own farm all their lives and work sun up to sun down most every day. Her great grandmother is very self sufficient and still living on her own ... she has to be in her mid 90's!!

I really wonder how badly these plans are going to hurt the small business owners (as I am one).

[CorvallisBMW]

^^ I would be interested to know how much malpractice insurance is carried by physicians in those other countries you listed, Darrin. (I'm looking right now, so give me some time.) I would bet my M3 (hypothetically) that malpractice insurance is one reason we pay so much for health care in this country. Not the only one, but definitely a big reason.

That is very true. Malpractice insurance is outrageous in the US, mostly because of stupid people who want to sue someone for every little mistake. Sadly, it's a cultural thing and those are damn hard to change.

I have heard nothing about tort reform or efforts to reduce the cost of malpractice insurance in the ongoing negotiations and development of either the House or Senate versions. Major improvement is needed in that area, IMO.

[Ral]

That is very true. Malpractice insurance is outrageous in the US, mostly because of stupid people who want to sue someone for every little mistake. Sadly, it's a cultural thing and those are damn hard to change.

I have heard nothing about tort reform or efforts to reduce the cost of malpractice insurance in the ongoing negotiations and development of either the House or Senate versions. Major improvement is needed in that area, IMO.

absolutely. One of the most efficient ways of decreasing costs. The more I read about it, the more i think Obama/Democrat's ideas will backfire however, without addressing a few key problems:

a. illegal immigration, which ties directly into (and is a cause of)
b. Emergency room crowding.. everyone goes to the ER for things that are not entirely urgent.
c. Limit not only frivolous malpractice lawsuits, but the added and unnecessary tests required to avoid them. As I understand it, many tests are ordered by doctors as a CYA measure, regardless of if they're needed or not simply to reduce their liability if things go south.

d. No public option. As explained in an article in The Weekly Standard,

First, there are massive hidden costs inherent in a little-understood provision of the plan. The centerpiece of Obamacare is a new premium subsidy program. In the House bill, families with incomes up to four times the poverty level would get a fixed cap on their insurance premiums, tied to their incomes. For instance, a family whose income is twice the poverty level would pay no more than 5 percent of its total income for insurance. But providing that guarantee to all such households in America would cost far more than even the Democrats are willing to propose. The plan therefore would make subsidies available only to households getting insurance through the new "exchanges," insurance pools set up in each state as a parallel system to job-based coverage. And full-time workers in all but the smallest firms would be barred from entering the exchanges, at least for a time, so they wouldn't have access to the new entitlement.

This means that two households, identical in all respects including income, would be treated very differently depending on whether they got their insurance through the exchange or through their employer. At twice the poverty level, a family of four today makes $44,000. Such a family insured through an exchange would pay no more than $2,200 for a policy that could cost $12,000, so it would receive a federal subsidy totaling nearly $10,000. The family next door, meanwhile, with the same income but with health insurance provided through the workplace, would receive an implicit tax break for the $12,000 in employer paid premiums worth only $3,600. That's a bonus of more than $6,000 for being in the exchange--or a penalty of $6,000 for having employer coverage. This disparate treatment would be widespread. The Census Bureau counts 102 million people under age 65 in households with incomes between 150 and 400 percent of the poverty level, but the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that only 20 million of them would receive insurance through the exchanges in 2014.

and finally (and most contentiously).. tie people's premiums to lifestyle choices. If you weigh 300 lbs, you must prove at your expense that it is a medical condition. If you can show improvement in overall health (decreasing BMI, lowering cholesterol via eating and exercise habits, etc.) then you get a deduction in premiums.

[CorvallisBMW]

I did a bit more research on this, and I may have overestimated the cost. All of the reports and studies that I looked up had the cost of malpractice insurance at about 1%-2% of total medical expenditures. I'll go back and try to look up the sources, I forgot to copy them down. The only sources that suggested they were a large part of health care costs were tort reform advocates and people with an axe to grind or a personal agenda. Honestly I'm surprised, I though it made up a much bigger part of the cost of healthcare in general. But if it really is just 1 or 2 percent, that's almost nothing, just a drop in the bucket.

[z31maniac]

And to the question I posed earlier, there were a few articles yesterday that indicated nearly 10% of all healthcare spending is DIRECTLY related to obesity-related diseases.

Heart disease, diabetes, etc (some is hereditary, but when you eat fried foods everyday adn never exercise.....) those are a huge killer in this country. So that people are big lazy fatasses, is NOT an indictment of our healthcare, but rather our lifestyle as a country.

[gwb72tii]

i believe, if i remember correctly, that about 80% of healtcare expense is for the aged.
i don't care what the messiah proposes/disposes in his big fucking plan, which is doomed to fail. the only way to limit cost is to limit access, end of story. the government will at some point say you are too old for that knee replacement, too old at 75 for heart bypass surgery, too old at 60 for a liver transplant.

anybody really believe a government solution will improve the current sysytem and lower costs? take a look at that other government run sysytem, public schools, and tell me why the government will make healthcare better.

the "trust" issue, at least for me, is important. and i don't trust the messiah and his stated goals of improving the healthcare system. i think most of this, if not all, is political and a plan for keeping his party in power by fundamentally changing 20% of the economy. it takes away our freedom and ensures our addiction on the government.

[h0lmes]

And to the question I posed earlier, there were a few articles yesterday that indicated nearly 10% of all healthcare spending is DIRECTLY related to obesity-related diseases.

Heart disease, diabetes, etc (some is hereditary, but when you eat fried foods everyday adn never exercise.....) those are a huge killer in this country. So that people are big lazy fatasses, is NOT an indictment of our healthcare, but rather our lifestyle as a country.

You can blame that one on the fast food companies. They are worse than the tobacco companies. At least the tobacco companies are restricted from doing any serious advertising. But For some reason its okay to market a 1000 calorie, preservative injected, gut bomb to children. The reason this country is going down the shitter is because of our disgusting capitalist establishment and the culture spawned from it.

[z31maniac]

You can blame that one on the fast food companies. They are worse than the tobacco companies. At least the tobacco companies are restricted from doing any serious advertising. But For some reason its okay to market a 1000 calorie, preservative injected, gut bomb to children. The reason this country is going down the shitter is because of our disgusting capitalist establishment and the culture spawned from it.

Right.

It's not the parents fault for allowing them to eat that stuff, it's the big evil corporations. People like you who shift blame to "The Establishment" completely ignore what parenting and family should be taking care of.

[Alkasquawlik]

You can blame that one on the fast food companies. They are worse than the tobacco companies. At least the tobacco companies are restricted from doing any serious advertising. But For some reason its okay to market a 1000 calorie, preservative injected, gut bomb to children. The reason this country is going down the shitter is because of our disgusting capitalist establishment and the culture spawned from it.

No one is forcing people to eat at the fast food restaurants.