Obama: 6 month report card

[Hallen]

We're going to get a VAT tax, they just won't do away with anything else.

Yay for 50% effective tax rates!

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. Yep, that's the problem with just about any new tax idea. The fear is that you'll get the new tax, and they won't remove or end up reinstating the old taxes that they had.

It's one reason they can't get a sales tax passed here in Oregon. They promise to reduce the property tax and income tax if we will just agree to a tiny 7% sales tax. But we don't believe our own government. We know they will wheedle around and eventually increase those other taxes again whilst they also keep increasing the sales tax.

I already paid 40% tax last year as a single, middle class wage earner. And that wasn't counting hidden taxes like gas taxes, etc. It did include social security and medicare though since those are just straight taxes no matter what the government calls them.

[che13]

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Better yet how about a fair tax???? You know the kind based on what you consume rather than on what you earn, this way you remove the penalty for being productive. Say a 12% VAT on everything but food and shelter (including clothing), That way if you want to be a cheap ass and not pay much tax you wont buy much new




Hallen: I have been looking forward to reading you take on this thread all day. While I am not a big "W" fan I have been saying for a long time that History will smile on him.

if it is a flat tax how are you being penalized for being productive? Wouldn't you want people to continue to buy "new" things and spend money to keep business going - if everyone hords their money away consumer business goes away (not that people would stop spending - I'm just saying)

[Schnitzer318is]

A flat tax based on income is not a penalty on being productive... the wealthy have been saying this forever. If you make more, you pay more. If you make a million a year and pay a 10% tax... you still cleared $900,000 that year. The middle class earner (like myself and my wife) make about $70000 a year, so our yearly tax would be $7000. Everyone pays the same percentage, thus negating the taxing productivity argument. I can tell you I'd still rather be the million/year earner and pay the $100,000 in taxes. As would any intelligent American.

Oh and Bush was a war mongering moron. He will not be smiled upon through history. He lost the popular vote the first time and only got elected the second time because of 9/11. He allowed the lending side of the real estate market to collapse and begin the take down of our economy. Not sure what good he did, though hopefully he did do some... after 8 years in office I would think it would be hard not to do at least some good things. But overall he was an epic fail of a POTUS.

[Alkasquawlik]

Not only is Obama an incompetent, he's a hypocritical incompetent

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/07/27/obama-2004-bush-rushed-legislationthrough-congress-without-allowing-ti

[che13]

A flat tax based on income is not a penalty on being productive... the wealthy have been saying this forever. If you make more, you pay more. If you make a million a year and pay a 10% tax... you still cleared $900,000 that year. The middle class earner (like myself and my wife) make about $70000 a year, so our yearly tax would be $7000. Everyone pays the same percentage, thus negating the taxing productivity argument. I can tell you I'd still rather be the million/year earner and pay the $100,000 in taxes. As would any intelligent American.

Oh and Bush was a war mongering moron. He will not be smiled upon through history. He lost the popular vote the first time and only got elected the second time because of 9/11. He allowed the lending side of the real estate market to collapse and begin the take down of our economy. Not sure what good he did, though hopefully he did do some... after 8 years in office I would think it would be hard not to do at least some good things. But overall he was an epic fail of a POTUS.

I agree with you - I was just wondering why the quoted post I responded to thought that a flat tax penalizes the productive. I think a flat tax across the board is the fairest. You make 10,000 dollars a year - you still pay 10% tax - sounds good to me

[kronus]

I agree with you - I was just wondering why the quoted post I responded to thought that a flat tax penalizes the productive. I think a flat tax across the board is the fairest. You make 10,000 dollars a year - you still pay 10% tax - sounds good to me

Flat tax is not economically viable. Currently, the top 1% of the population income-wise pays about 50% of the bulk amount of income tax in this country. If you want a flat tax to work, EVERYONE's tax goes up to untractable amounts besides the incredibly wealthy. For a bunch of people that constantly whine about even the slightest tax increases, I'm surprised that your camp doesn't find this objectionable ;)

[che13]

Flat tax is not economically viable. Currently, the top 1% of the population income-wise pays about 50% of the bulk amount of income tax in this country. If you want a flat tax to work, EVERYONE's tax goes up to untractable amounts besides the incredibly wealthy. For a bunch of people that constantly whine about even the slightest tax increases, I'm surprised that your camp doesn't find this objectionable ;)

what is "my" camp???

Didn't say it was economically viable - I just believe that it is fair. I think that everyone should pay taxes - especially if you are receiving aid from those taxes. I also think that just because you make a lot of money (most of the time through hard work) doesn't mean that you should pay way more taxes than everyone.

I don't really have a camp. I think for myself and make informed decisions - none of our Political Parties represent my beliefs. I just think its funny that people will blindly follow the Dems or Repubs no matter what the actual candidate is saying. It basically breaks down to whoever is in power - the other side does nothing but name call and starts quoting the fringe of that other party. The far right and the far left are equally crazy in my eyes - Most people in this country fall either just to the left or just to the right of the middle - no matter what the media tries to tell us.

[kronus]

what is "my" camp???

Didn't say it was economically viable - I just believe that it is fair. I think that everyone should pay taxes - especially if you are receiving aid from those taxes. I also think that just because you make a lot of money (most of the time through hard work) doesn't mean that you should pay way more taxes than everyone.

I don't really have a camp. I think for myself and make informed decisions - none of our Political Parties represent my beliefs. I just think its funny that people will blindly follow the Dems or Repubs no matter what the actual candidate is saying. It basically breaks down to whoever is in power - the other side does nothing but name call and starts quoting the fringe of that other party. The far right and the far left are equally crazy in my eyes - Most people in this country fall either just to the left or just to the right of the middle - no matter what the media tries to tell us.

Fair enough. I posit that most people in that top 1% make their money not through hard work, but through being lucky, capitalizing on the opportunity, and shuffling around investments. I.e. they use their money to make more money, which is not hard work.

Also, I posit that people that receive aid from taxes don't have the money to pay those taxes, by definition.

Thoughts?

(for the record, I'm not with a specific camp, either. I'm foreign :o)

[Victell]

Flat tax I am down for. And I know i'll probably pay more too.

Flat tax across the board; keep it simple. Think of how much money we'd save by cutting the IRS down to 10% of its size.

[che13]

Fair enough. I posit that most people in that top 1% make their money not through hard work, but through being lucky, capitalizing on the opportunity, and shuffling around investments. I.e. they use their money to make more money, which is not hard work.

Also, I posit that people that receive aid from taxes don't have the money to pay those taxes, by definition.

Thoughts?

(for the record, I'm not with a specific camp, either. I'm foreign :o)

I agree that the people who receive aid from taxes don't have the money to pay those taxes by definition - but I feel they should have to pay something. the problem we have here is that there are too many people that are 3rd generation welfare recipients that have no motivation to get off assistance. Now don't get me wrong - I am not discounting the plight of poor people in this country and how hard it is to get ahead when you are disadvantaged from the start - but it is too easy to get on and stay on assistance.

I think you are discounting how most of the rich people, in this country at least, made their money.

If you let someone think that they will get free money for doing nothing all their life - then how do you think that turns out.

[mrsleeve]

We're going to get a VAT tax, they just won't do away with anything else.

Yay for 50% effective tax rates!

This is what I am afraid of that will put many people in the over 50% effective tax bracket. I would support going to VAT if we abolish the IRS.

This why everyone pays a fair share, as it sits now the 1% or so pay the largest burden of taxes and the bottom 50ish% dont pay any. Its a Consumption based tax not a Production, by taxing production you take away incentive and initiative to earn more and make a better living. As its set up now you make 1 dollar too much in a year and you are bumped into the next tax bracket and you tax bill jumps 15K or more dollars thats not an incentive to make 3k dollars more than you made last year as the tax bill would = a net loss of 12k in your pocket from the previous. The IRS and income taxes are a punitive tax system period.

A VAT only would still tax the rich more because they would still be buying more shit as new, as would all of us because there would be 35% more in our Pay checks every week. We get to keep what WE EARN and spend it on what we see fit, this will allow you to be a cheap ass and not buy very many things if you dont want to pay much in tax, or you will pay a lot in tax if yo are one of those people that has to have th latest and greatest of every thing all the time


Kronos: WHO THE FUCK CARES HOW A PERSON EARNED THEIR MONEY!!!!!!!! Its their money, and they worked very hard to earn it, weather it be with a shovel in a fucking ditch or in a office on wall street, it work either way an both I am sure would rater be sitting on a boat fishing than at work. I used to think like that I have mad my living in ditches my entire life and rather good living at that, my uncle was the senior V.P. for a very famous MultiNational and has made millions with them. Is used to think he didnt work hard because he sat in an office all day. Till one day I stopped by his their house after work (I was on a job in their area) and he was at home still working on a project and he did that day in day out 7 days a week his whole life. I finally learned that even on vacations he was still working and this is why he got to retire 100% at 50.

[che13]

This is what I am afraid of that will put many people in the over 50% effective tax bracket. I would support going to VAT if we abolish the IRS.

This why everyone pays a fair share, as it sits now the 1% or so pay the largest burden of taxes and the bottom 50ish% dont pay any. Its a Consumption based tax not a Production, by taxing production you take away incentive and initiative to earn more and make a better living. As its set up now you make 1 dollar too much in a year and you are bumped into the next tax bracket and you tax bill jumps 15K or more dollars thats not an incentive to make 3k dollars more than you made last year as the tax bill would = a net loss of 12k in your pocket from the previous. The IRS and income taxes are a punitive tax system period.

A VAT only would still tax the rich more because they would still be buying more shit as new, as would all of us because there would be 35% more in our Pay checks every week. We get to keep what WE EARN and spend it on what we see fit, this will allow you to be a cheap ass and not buy very many things if you dont want to pay much in tax, or you will pay a lot in tax if yo are one of those people that has to have th latest and greatest of every thing all the time

correct me if I am wrong - but I thought that when you get bumped to the next tax bracket you are only paying the new tax bracket on what you went over the old tax bracket - meaning that it wouldn't be a loss of 12k in your scenario. I could be wrong but that is how I thought it was.

[mrsleeve]

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Yes while I did simplify the scenario for ease of calculation and sensationalized it a small bit for effect you are correct to a point. You get the Initial hike into the next bracket which can be a rather large number and the prorated to the top of the bracket by how much far into you need to be. To make it worth you efforts when you move a tax bracket you better be in the middle or higher portions of it to make a net positive impact on you annual income.

I know this because for several years I was at the top of my tax bracket and last year I went into the next one by about 1200 bucks and I actual lost money on the whole for last year compared to the previous due to the new higher tax bracket.

I loathe and Despise the IRS 1 of 2 things needs to happen. We need to hold all state and federal election on April 16 or every one keeps all their earnings every month and gets a bill from the IRS that they have to make out the check and mail too Washington every month. This will show people how much they really pay every week in taxes just to the state a feds income tax. It would stop fast its the I dont really see it so I dotn think about it thing

Oh and when you add up all the hidden taxes, use fees and shit thats in our day to day products and services we all ready pay in the neighbor hood of 50% of our income in taxes as it is now.

[che13]

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Yes while I did simply the scenario for ease of calculation and sensationalized it a small bit for effect you are correct to a point. You get the Initial hike into the next bracket which can be a rather large number and the prorated to the top of the bracket by how much far into you need to be. To make it worth you efforts when you move a tax bracket you better be in the middle or higher portions of it to make a net positive impact on you annual income.

I know this because for several years I was at the top of my tax bracket and last year I went into the next one by about 1200 bucks and I actual lost money on the whole for last year compared to the previous due to the new higher tax bracket.

I loathe and Despise the IRS 1 of 2 things needs to happen. We need to hold all state and federal election on April 16 or every one keeps all their earnings every month and gets a bill from the IRS that they have to make out the check and mail too Washington every month. This will show people how much they really pay every week in taxes just to the state a feds income tax. It would stop fast its the I dont really see it so I dotn think about it thing

Oh and when you add up all the hidden taxes, use fees and shit thats in our day to day products and services we all ready pay in the neighbor hood of 50% of our income in taxes as it is now.

I hear ya - I try not to think about it. It is very obvious for me though - I get paid on a monthly basis and when I see what my check is and do the easy math (x12) I see what I bring home and then I start getting pissed. Especially since my wife makes good money also - that = lots of taxes for us! I would love to make all my paycheck for once - that would be nice!

My favorite was this tax season - our state (which is in shambles - money wise) informed everyone that they should expect to wait an addition 4-6 weeks for their state return because they didn't have the money to give back to those that over paid! that was funny

[Hallen]

Flat tax is not economically viable. Currently, the top 1% of the population income-wise pays about 50% of the bulk amount of income tax in this country. If you want a flat tax to work, EVERYONE's tax goes up to untractable amounts besides the incredibly wealthy. For a bunch of people that constantly whine about even the slightest tax increases, I'm surprised that your camp doesn't find this objectionable ;)

It's a good point. But I would change the wording a bit. It is economically viable, it just wouldn't provide enough money for the government to run on. We were talking about a 10% flat income tax. That would be OK. What you imply is the rate would have to be higher than 10% to compensate for the disproportionate amount of money that comes from the "rich" now. Probably true if you kept government at the same level as they are today. That would be objectionable. We don't need to pay more, we need to really pay less. So, "our camp" would find a flat tax set at 20% objectionable.

A flat tax based on income is not a penalty on being productive... the wealthy have been saying this forever. If you make more, you pay more. If you make a million a year and pay a 10% tax... you still cleared $900,000 that year. The middle class earner (like myself and my wife) make about $70000 a year, so our yearly tax would be $7000. Everyone pays the same percentage, thus negating the taxing productivity argument. I can tell you I'd still rather be the million/year earner and pay the $100,000 in taxes. As would any intelligent American.

What we have now is progressive so the rich do pay more as a percentage than the poor. This is somewhat fair in that the higher your expendable income is, the less effect the taxes have on your life. There is some validity to that argument. A flat tax ignores that part so most of the objection comes from pro-government and pro-government welfare program types.

Oh and Bush was a war mongering moron. He will not be smiled upon through history. He lost the popular vote the first time and only got elected the second time because of 9/11. He allowed the lending side of the real estate market to collapse and begin the take down of our economy. Not sure what good he did, though hopefully he did do some... after 8 years in office I would think it would be hard not to do at least some good things. But overall he was an epic fail of a POTUS.

You are welcome to your opinion on Bush's defence plans and why he got elected (my opinion on why Obama got elected is that the majority of people in the US can't think for themselves and are more impressed with shiny things than they are with substance). But Bush had little to nothing to do with the downfall of the economy. That stage was set well before he took office. True, he didn't stop it, but the record will show that he was blocked by the democrat controlled congress every time he did try and do something about it. Point your anger at people like Barny Frank when it comes to this financial mess. He and his cronies are the problem there (along with Clinton and Carter... yes, it goes that far back).


Obama and the democrat controlled house would never let a flat tax pass. No way. Not unless it were set at 50% (plus social security and government health plan taxes). They would argue that it is unfair to low income people (and they wouldn't be completely wrong).

Income taxes get horribly complicated no matter what you do. What constitutes income? Is it fair to tax money that you earned but had to pay taxes with? Do you have to count the income from the sale of your old car? etc. A VAT may solve that kind of problem, but I worry about a VAT getting crazy too.