Shit hits the fan in Fort Hood, Texas. 50 casualties.

[Massive Lee]

Hey Hallen.

Are you into music and sacred/religious chants? If so, please listen to this track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4ycRzwqDc

This is a Christian religious chant, performed by Christian monks. What you may notice is that it is hugely influenced by Arabic tonalities. This is simply because until Pope St-Ambroisia, communications and relations were very open between Christians and Muslims. That allowed Europe to beneficiate from modern geometry, maths and medecine by means of cultural exchanges. Egyptian mummies were even found in Ireland...

What may have put a term to this era of peace is probably the Crusades and the Great Inquisition, which were fights for power within the Christian church and the ensuing chism.

[der affe]

^^^ ENIGMA?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5puvToReRr0&feature=fvw

i do wonder about the point that Hallen brought up though, why arre the non violent muslims not greatly upset by the actions of the radical/violent sects and making a great effort to denounce them or show that they are not the norm?

by doing nothing, that is a way of condoning the actions just the same. right or wrong, the is the outward perception to those of the "west" or those not privey to information to discredit them.

it would be like giving the blanket statement the all the Irish love and support the IRA (another radical voilent group for example), which is infact HUGELY incorrect, but talk to many outside of Ireland of Irish decent several generations removed (particularly in the US) and you will hear them spout off about the "glory" of the IRA and their "struggle". does that mean that all Irish or all Catholics are radical extremeists, no it does not.

[Massive Lee]

:) Nop. "Ecce quam bonum et jocundum"

From the days when Christans were a bit more open minded...

[der affe]

just funning with you Lee. at least you are old enough to know what i meant or remember them.

what is your take on the rest of the post though, you seem to be playing the devils advocate

[chadthestampede]

:) Nop. "Ecce quam bonum et jocundum"

From the days when Christans were a bit more open minded...

speaking of blanket statements

[ben312]

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51


you can shut up and take your ignorance someplace else now.
im not hateful. im pointing out that islam is.

and no the muslims worship a different god than christians. the christian God is a trinity, the muslims isn't. different God.

good thing that your god is thier god eh? ;)

oh and the huge fact that all your qoutes come after it also says that allah says only to kill in defence of allah, and that if your enemy says they are sorry forgive him, for allah is a forgiving god. also, if your enemy stops fighting you, do not kill him, for allah is a mercyfull god. good try, but taking shit out of context doesn't prove anything.

[kishg]

why arre the non violent christians not greatly upset by the actions of the radical/violent sects and making a great effort to denounce them or show that they are not the norm?

by doing nothing, that is a way of condoning the actions just the same. right or wrong, the is the outward perception not privey to information to discredit them.

it would be like giving the blanket statement the all the Irish love and support the IRA (another radical voilent group for example), which is infact HUGELY incorrect, but talk to many outside of Ireland of Irish decent several generations removed (particularly in the US) and you will hear them spout off about the "glory" of the IRA and their "struggle". does that mean that all Irish or all Catholics are radical extremeists, no it does not.

i think you answered your own question :)

[Massive Lee]

speaking of blanket statements

You are 100% correct actually. Devils999 is not a representative sample of the Christian community.

[der affe]

copy and paste, great retort .
i am 1/4 Irish (my great grand parents came to the US from Ireland) and i DO correct anyone who acts that way and makes stupid statements like that AND can back it up with FACTS.

i DESPISE organized religion, although it can and does have a purpose as long at it is not used in an corupt manner. i was raised Catholic and try to behave in a "Christian" way, but by no means support the Catholic church (and have seen the hipocracy behind the church). basically i treat you the way i would like to be treated. no need to go to a church for that.

i was NOT attacting you for your views like some in this post. i was asking a legimate question. being Musilum seems to be something very important to you as i am sure that it is to many who are. if something near and dear to me is being attacked (in the way of being discredited or misrepresented) i would dam sure be doing something to set it right and prove the negative views wrong. i would take every change to do so with facts and actions, not discredit myself with pissy responces like you have given.

now lets give it another try.
why is there not a strong movement to discredit those who perpertrate the violent acts?
if you don't know why, but don't agree with them, that is ok to say, you are just one person out of many, but you can at least make an effort.

if you agree with their violent actions, that is your right, make it know and stand up for your convictions then and let everyone know!

[kishg]

copy and paste, great retort .
i am 1/4 Irish (my great grand parents came to the US from Ireland) and i DO correct anyone who acts that way and makes stupid statements like that AND can back it up with FACTS.

i DESPISE organized religion, although it can and does have a purpose as long at it is not used in an corupt manner. i was raised Catholic and try to behave in a "Christian" way, but by no means support the Catholic church (and have seen the hipocracy behind the church). basically i treat you the way i would like to be treated. no need to go to a church for that.

i was NOT attacting you for your views like some in this post. i was asking a legimate question. being Musilum seems to be something very important to you as i am sure that it is to many who are. if something near and dear to me is being attacked (in the way of being discredited or misrepresented) i would dam sure be doing something to set it right and prove the negative views wrong. i would take every change to do so with facts and actions, not discredit myself with pissy responces like you have given.

now lets give it another try.
why is there not a strong movement to discredit those who perpertrate the violent acts?
if you don't know why, but don't agree with them, that is ok to say, you are just one person out of many, but you can at least make an effort.

if you agree with their violent actions, that is your right, make it know and stand up for your convictions then and let everyone know!

err.. who are you addressing here?

[der affe]

you since you were replying to My post

[kishg]

you since you were replying to My post

well first of all, if you read my previous responses in this thread you will find that I am not muslim and never have been. I am an atheist from a buddhist background. Secondly, I wasn't trying to give a pissy response, rather a funny one. I guess that failed :) But, as I said, I think you already answered the question when you brought up the IRA analogy. I can't speak to the mentality of muslims or arabs or people who may have vested interests in using Islam as a crutch for their violence because I am not one.

[der affe]

dammit!
i was just looking back the 150+ pages in this thread and figured out it WAS NOT you i was thinking of. crap, my bad, mongo sorry.

let me try again, if i may.
BEN312 lets see your answer to the questions i posed.
LEE care to chime in
or anyone else who is Muslim?

[kishg]

dammit!
i was just looking back the 150+ pages in this thread and figured out it WAS NOT you i was thinking of. crap, my bad, mongo sorry.

let me try again, if i may.
BEN312 lets see your answer to the questions i posed.
LEE care to chime in
or anyone else who is Muslim?

hehe no worries.. btw, i don't think it's the muslims that are arguing in this thread.

[der affe]

yea, DVD90210 is not doing a great job for the christian side, but he is at least spouting out passages, i have no idea if they are out of context or not and i have no desire to read to see if they are being quoted that way.
the muslium side is not doing a great job answering direct questions without throwing emotions into it. not a great job of arguing either.

it is like watching 2 retarded 4 year olds fight it out under a blanket. you'll never see who is the clear winner fighting that way.