The job market is really pissing me off.

[StereoInstaller1]

Isn't this kind of like that old fable about all the parts of the body arguing about what part is the most important?

Didn't the asshole win?

Does that mean heeter is the most important member here?

[ck_taft325is]

But with how much experience? Engineers start a little shy of that, some more. Add in experience and continued schooling and $100K+ is pretty standard. There's a much more limited long-term salary growth I see with plumbing.

There wouldn't be a lot of things in the world without someone designing them. Engineers fix things too, of a greater technical need and with abilities few others have. I'm a DIY-type and can read and understand how to fix a lot of things around the house, but it's not like the average joe can pick up a book and repair the turbine fan on a jet engine. Even if not as apparent of contribution, people certainly enjoy the ability to commute with airlines. We could rejoice in the ability to shower or flush our shit down, but without engineers we couldn't fly on planes, our cars wouldn't exist like they do, we wouldn't have refined gasoline, and our roads and bridges wouldn't be as well designed or long-lasting.

This is not a "what do we need more" scenerio here. What Luke lined out was in the event of shit hitting the fan, a plumber may come more in handy than a guy that designs things. Sure, when civilization comes back together and large projects are needed, Engineers play a pivotal role. In the realm of income, no, of course a Plumber will not start at a great income. But I know many a plumber that moves from plumbing apprentice to owning their own business and make $100,000 + a year. Their business even more.

My quam was that Engineer's contribute more to Society. I think this statement is elitist and false. If you're an engineer, obviously you'll have some handy-man type skills (dependant on field of engineering). Half the engineers I know are really educated mechanics that love getting their hands dirty and happen to know the math behind the principle.

But to equate a salary to worth to a Society is purely falsehood and again, elitist. I've known people with portfolios and worked for these people that honestly, couldn't hold a hammer. They don't want to. I get that. It's hard work. To claim hard work means that you're less educated, of lesser intelligence or less productive for and to society is ignorant. In my experience there's cases with people where the shoes really couldn't fit on the other feet in terms of chosen fields. Take playing guitar for example... anyone can learn but not everyone can write Stairway to Heaven. While in the same way "anyone" can just "put pipes together" (which for the record is not that simple) or frame a wall, or side a house, or pour a driveway, it is just not that simple.

Anyone can also drive a car. But anyone can get into an accident. The same principle applies. Not everyone is has smart as everyone else and there's nothing wrong with this until the smart person starts to feel above those of lesser intelligence.

I'm not sure what the general debate here is in any case. If it's who contributes more to society? Well, that has nothing to do with what you do but more about who you are. If it's who is more integral in the big scheme of things? This cannot be measured in monetary gain or income. If it's who is smarter? Something can be said for not working hard and being "smart" and getting a degree. Something can also be said for working hard and not being a douche-bag elitist asswipe that has soft hands and treats everyone like they are a lesser form of life.

[lennon]

I can get a job anywhere in the country I want. The secret? Technical skilled labour. So many people out there want a job tap-tapping away on some government keyboard or providing power point presentations for meetings and other non-productive American business bullshit. The problem with this country is that no-one is willing to DO anything REAL anymore. So while you college grad suckers scrounge for work those of us who have experience fixing broken things that you can't fix still have jobs. And when you run out of money? You'll have to trade your prized e30 shit for food.

what ''Technical skilled labour'' do you do? your post makes you look like a jackass.

[rwh11385]

^not in line with my experience, as I know a few plumbers, most make around $70K, more in line with my expectation of an engineers earnings.

Practicality though? I will take a guy who fixes shit for a living over a designer any day.

But with how much experience? Engineers start a little shy of that, some more. Add in experience and continued schooling and $100K+ is pretty standard. There's a much more limited long-term salary growth I see with plumbing.

There wouldn't be a lot of things in the world without someone designing them. Engineers fix things too, of a greater technical need and with abilities few others have. I'm a DIY-type and can read and understand how to fix a lot of things around the house, but it's not like the average joe can pick up a book and repair the turbine fan on a jet engine. Even if not as apparent of contribution, people certainly enjoy the ability to commute with airlines. We could rejoice in the ability to shower or flush our shit down, but without engineers we couldn't fly on planes, our cars wouldn't exist like they do, we wouldn't have refined gasoline, and our roads and bridges wouldn't be as well designed or long-lasting.

[StereoInstaller1]

^not in line with my experience, as I know a few plumbers, most make around $70K, more in line with my expectation of an engineers earnings.

Practicality though? I will take a guy who fixes shit for a living over a designer any day.

[rwh11385]

I support people finding careers in technical and professional fields because they are needed and more stable possibly than more formally educated areas you'd need a BS for... but plumbers need to have great other abilities of business acumen, marketing, etc. to make a good amount of money or so I perceive. They really are in charge of their own business if on their own to make $$$, or just take it from "the man" if working for someone else.

But as far as average salaries go... "Compensation: the average yearly salary for plumbers in 2008 was $49,200, according to the U.S. Department of Labor." And even with decades of experience... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Plumber/Salary you are still in the range of starting engineer salaries. If you have two decades experience as a ME, you ought to be nearing six figures: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...ars_Experience

Sure, maybe some plumbers can design as well as repair... and maybe some engineers can't make what they can design, but the world cannot advance with a lot of plumbers like it can with a labor force including capable engineers. We'll need road crews, plumbers, construction managers, electricians, and handyman until the end of time likely, but they aren't going to lead innovation instead of repairing the existing or putting into place / implementing what engineers design.

[ck_taft325is]

what good will a plumbing background be if infrastructure has collapsed? i would rather be stuck with an engineer, ie someone who could properly design structures using basic calculations, etc. i know this wasn't the main point of your statement, but i'm just sayin.....

A majority of plumbers that I've personally worked with could do that. And what with my experience in the Construction field (Commercial or Residential) I'd go with the Plumber. Engineers could do a lot of thinking but it's useless if they can't build it. Sorry, but between my father and I, we've engineered more than the engineers and architechs have. Regularly revising their idea of what is "engineered" and what actually works.

Please keep in mind, there's nothing wrong with engineers. In the scenerio that Luke presented, the plumber's much more capable than an engineer. To imply that a plumber couldn't make "basic calculations" is a serious case of calling plumbers and frankly blue collar workers everywhere idiots.

[hugh jass]

You are aware that plumbers make as much or more than Engineers, right?

Kinda refutes your statements...if the income is the barometer, plumbers are certainly worth more to society, as they have basically similar incomes, are far more versatile in their choices of habitat (as in employment is EVERYWHERE) and are not limited by the size of the company/community plus their skillset requires far more adaptive thinking.

All in all, were I forced to live in a place that basic infrastructure had collapsed (Tsunami, Earthquake, other major natural disasters, whatever) If I had a choice between casting my lot with an engineer or a plumber, I will take the plumber.

what good will a plumbing background be if infrastructure has collapsed? i would rather be stuck with an engineer, ie someone who could properly design structures using basic calculations, etc. i know this wasn't the main point of your statement, but i'm just sayin.....

[StereoInstaller1]

I don't want to seem arrogant (like writing that affects you're opinion ;) but don't you think it is a little silly to say that a plumber and an engineer contribute the same amount to society? If they did why aren't we a communist nation where everyone works to their ability and receives what they need? It's because different jobs require different skill set and some people have skills that allow them to design robots and others have skills that allow them to pipe fit. I think it is stupid to singularly focus on one thing and only that, it is impossible to be independent like that. That is why my philosophy is to get a career that allows me to pay people to fix my shit but not have to because I know how. Now if you are happy as a plumber, good for you, plumbing robots are a long ways a way so you're all set. I can respect that, but what I cannot respect is someone saying that college is intellectual mumbo-jumbo. America wouldn't be in such a bad state if it invested less in the military and more in education. This would allow us to shift to an economy based off of Research and Development (which unlike manufacturing is a difficult investment for developing countries). How are we supposed to compete with countries like Japan who are sending their kids to school 6 days a week without summer vacation? It would be difficult to have a job in the trades when no one is making any money to pay you, wouldn't it?

You are aware that plumbers make as much or more than Engineers, right?

Kinda refutes your statements...if the income is the barometer, plumbers are certainly worth more to society, as they have basically similar incomes, are far more versatile in their choices of habitat (as in employment is EVERYWHERE) and are not limited by the size of the company/community plus their skillset requires far more adaptive thinking.

All in all, were I forced to live in a place that basic infrastructure had collapsed (Tsunami, Earthquake, other major natural disasters, whatever) If I had a choice between casting my lot with an engineer or a plumber, I will take the plumber.

[analogjesus]

Ah, but to say that because you're a plumber, you don't contribute to society as much as the next guy is limited and narrow minded. Someone's occupation has a small percentage to do with what or how they contribute to society. To think so, is intellectual snobbery, arrogant and extremely insulting. Nor does intelligence dictate the field you've chosen.

The money you make should not be correlated to what you contribute to society. While money helps, it is just another tool.

On the flip side, education is never a bad thing. But education is not always formal nor can it be judged by a piece of paper that a College gives you.

Here's the reality, you are being arrogant. You are being an intellectual snob and wildly degrading. You ARE essentially saying that trades should know their place. They are below those who make more money.

I wouldn't go into Military and Education. Education should not be Government funded. I'm no abdicating non-education or anything of the sort. One would be wise to be wary about throwing stones at those that put their asses on the line to protect your "right" to be an intellectual snob.

Instead of society I should of said economy, sorry. I realize financial contributions are not the only thing people can give, but that is specifically what I was referring too. I don't think there is a correlation between someone's occupation and their traits so I am trying to avoid saying "all plumbers are dumb" or "all engineers are smart" because that would be flat out wrong. I do not want to evaluate plumber's vs. engineer's in terms of individual cases, or at all actually. If the engineer who didn't know how to put in a toilet didn't exist the plumber would not have a job and if the plumber didn't exist the engineer would have a wet house. All I am saying that, there is a distinction between an engineer's and a plumber's financial contributions to the economy. But to call me narrow-minded because I can recognize the difference between designing a new car and fixing someone's pipes is? Do not misinterpret what I am saying, I am not trying to say engineers are more intelligent because that is a stereo-typical view that would only serve in burden our nation's progress. I am simply stating that an engineer and a plumber's occupations contribute different amounts to the economy.

I think one of our problems is a fear of knowledge. I do not claim to be all knowing, and I often make mistakes. But, I learn from these mistakes and attempt to better myself. There exist a majority in America (none of you) who are not interested in the advancement of technology or betterment of us as a whole. Do you not agree that a general increase in intelligence in America would lead to a better nation?

What exactly is threatening my freedom? It is such a large threat that we need to spend $522.1B more than the nation with the next largest military budget (China)? All of you who complain that Obama is taking your money and spending on pointless endeavours should really consider the pointlessness of such a large military budget. I mean why don't we just reduce the budget to something a little less crazy like $100B more than China, that way we can cut taxes and increase education spending which would also stimulate the economy.

[analogjesus]

I only read one line in you're post and would like to refute it:
"This whole downturn is the fault of government intervention in the markets, as was the great depression"

The Great Depression was a result of Margin-Buying. Where banks would invest stored money. This system eventually fell apart because the stocks reached prices that were absolutely absurd. Once the bubble burst the investments stopped paying, the banks lost the money that Americans entrusted them with. This caused a rush of Americans who wanted to withdraw their money. Basically the whole entire economy "froze up"

I am not educated enough in the subject of the current recession to make a comment, but I don't think government intervention was the main cause. I think it had something to do with people taking out loans for more than they could actually afford, and mass foreclosures ensued.

[ck_taft325is]

Ah, but to say that because you're a plumber, you don't contribute to society as much as the next guy is limited and narrow minded. Someone's occupation has a small percentage to do with what or how they contribute to society. To think so, is intellectual snobbery, arrogant and extremely insulting. Nor does intelligence dictate the field you've chosen.

The money you make should not be correlated to what you contribute to society. While money helps, it is just another tool.

On the flip side, education is never a bad thing. But education is not always formal nor can it be judged by a piece of paper that a College gives you.

Here's the reality, you are being arrogant. You are being an intellectual snob and wildly degrading. You ARE essentially saying that trades should know their place. They are below those who make more money.

I wouldn't go into Military and Education. Education should not be Government funded. I'm no abdicating non-education or anything of the sort. One would be wise to be wary about throwing stones at those that put their asses on the line to protect your "right" to be an intellectual snob.

[Hallen]

No, Josh, but you are the 3rd or 4th in just this thread.

I mean seriously, its like "I can't get anywhere I wanna go because the damn government put speed limits on this road"...yeah, there are taxes and fees and BS regulations so what? If you are gonna do business, do business. If you are gonna work for yourself, do that...or if you are gonna be a lazy bitch and sit on your ass all fucking day waiting for the weather to change (yes, that would be me) quit bitching about being broke, right?

I mean, ultimately, we all play by the same rules. the big greedy guys get all the breaks but want more. Poor guys are still poor and generally are willing to work harder, no matter Republican or Dem, Independent or Don't give a shit...

No, we don't all play by the same rules. To a certain extent, yes, but publicly traded companies play by hugely different rules than a private company. Those rules are not favorable for publicly traded companies. They are downright onerous and I am surprised that companies even consider going that route now.

Also, government interaction in industries with their random rules trying to "help" something or to "protect" something usually end up forcing business to do weird things that damage everybody.

"The big greedy guys" are no different than the small business owner. They're just looking to maximize profit, minimize waste, and continue the business. Usually, that "continue the business" part makes them risk adverse. Take that part away, and risk is the trick of the day.

The difference between private and publicly trades is their leverage with the government. I'm the first to stand up and say that is bad. The reason it is bad, however, is not because business has leverage with the government, it is that the government keeps fucking with things that they shouldn't touch. They are being guided by big business, but if the government would stop messing with business so much, that couldn't happen. It's the governments fault. Since government keeps fucking with things, it is in the best interests of business to influence that kind of thing, hopefully to their advantage. Unfortunately, if it advantages one group, it almost always harms another.

This whole downturn is the fault of government intervention in the markets, as was the great depression. Businesses just take advantage of the environment. I am the first to admit that unethical and unreasonably risky actions were taken by business, but the occurred, for the most part, because of the unstable market that the government created through stupid regulation and laws. Business is like a wild animal. It has innate instincts that drives it. Understand that, and you should understand why trying to force that wild animal to jump through hoops is going to backfire, sooner or later.

The trades are going to be around for a long time. There are some jobs that are always going to be location and skills centric. They will be lower paying jobs than can be found in other types of business, but they are still a hugely vital part of our economy and society. I don't see that changing quickly. It will change over time with technology and society, but there are jobs that technology simply can't replace for a long, long time, if ever.

I'm sorry that our government has caused this and is also doing more stupid things causing the recovery to be much slower than it should. If you all would just look at economics and how things should be working, I think you would consider changing how you vote in the future.

[analogjesus]

Wow...I don't know you at all, have not read much of what you have had to say...but you sound like a total elitist prick.

On the other hand, the reverse snobbery that one of our "trade workers" posted was pretty damned impudent, too.

I don't want to seem arrogant (like writing that affects you're opinion ;) but don't you think it is a little silly to say that a plumber and an engineer contribute the same amount to society? If they did why aren't we a communist nation where everyone works to their ability and receives what they need? It's because different jobs require different skill set and some people have skills that allow them to design robots and others have skills that allow them to pipe fit. I think it is stupid to singularly focus on one thing and only that, it is impossible to be independent like that. That is why my philosophy is to get a career that allows me to pay people to fix my shit but not have to because I know how. Now if you are happy as a plumber, good for you, plumbing robots are a long ways a way so you're all set. I can respect that, but what I cannot respect is someone saying that college is intellectual mumbo-jumbo. America wouldn't be in such a bad state if it invested less in the military and more in education. This would allow us to shift to an economy based off of Research and Development (which unlike manufacturing is a difficult investment for developing countries). How are we supposed to compete with countries like Japan who are sending their kids to school 6 days a week without summer vacation? It would be difficult to have a job in the trades when no one is making any money to pay you, wouldn't it?

[StereoInstaller1]

IT seems like such a scam.. every time I check into those jobs it's a lucky hit if they pay $15/hr for trained experienced troubleshooters. Usually it's less.
Every once in a while you can find a particular hook, like someone needs a FORTRAN programmer to limp thier outdated system along for another few years.. and thinks this will be cheaper than bringing thier shit out of the stone age. You just know a place that like will be AWESOME to work for.

You mean like the utility company in Vancouver WA that was using a token ring network and DOS based software in 2007?