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    Alright nerds, first and foremost, the universe is accurately dated at 13.7 billion years old. Its nearly indisputable and widely accepted. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/...apresults.html

    Honestly, and i'll expand if you wish, there is not enough time (based on the age of our universe) for amino acid mutations to take place in the volume necessary to support macro-evolution. I'll borrow here a bit

    "Think again about our average human protein of 469 amino acids, with specified sequence. Let's assume that by the design process the correct amino acid sequence was assembled so that our protein can function, as an enzyme or in a structural capacity. But wait, and wait some more, and sorry, keep waiting… each amino acid has two rotatable bonds, known as phi and psi (ignore that this is a wild underestimate because it neglects sidechain conformations). Each of those bonds can assume three possible rotations (called rotameric states). Therefore a protein of 469 amino acids has 3^469 possible conformational states (10^223 states). Since bonds change their rotational state about 10 times in a picosecond, our average human protein of 469 amino acid will take 10^202 years, or 10^193 billion years, to fold, to randomly find that one single conformational state known as the native state. The chance that the average human protein will fold by random processes during the 10 billion year existence of the universe is way way way less than the Little Willie's Universal Probability Bound. This little secret is known to biochemists, who do not talk about it to outsiders, as the ‘Levinthal Paradox’

    If you and I and our families and friends and their families and their friends started randomly combining amino acids hoping to stumble upon a 469 amino acid protein of specified sequence, we would never, never, never, not in a billion billion years, never, never, ever succeed. Even if we had enough time, the earth would run out of carbon before we slogged our way out of that vast random sequence space. Most possible proteins have not been made, neither by nature nor in the laboratory, and never will be made. Protein sequence space is essentially unexplored. "


    Furthemore, Micro-evolution is a fact. Nobody has ever disputed this that has a fundemental understanding of what micro-evolution is.

    However, there are three big problems with Macro-evolution, which is what those who believe in radical changes between species occuring (such as humans evolving from monkey's or fish over millions/billions of years.)

    Irreducibly complex changes, dna limitations, an inability add information to dna.

    When a trait is critical for the survival of the species, it must be fully functional or the species will die off and any ‘evolutionary progress’ would be lost. For example, a bat could not evolve from a rodent because it is completely dependent on its wings for survival. A half-evolved wing could not be used for walking because of its awkward length and shape and would not be functional for flying. The idea of a half-evolved bat is completely illogical. It would be easily tracked down by predators and it would be helpless to get food and survive on its own. This need for completeness can be clearly observed from the most primitive single celled animal to the most complex mammal. To contradict this idea would clearly contradict Darwin’s principle of natural selection. Many scientists are making a shift because gradual change produces dysfunction in-between species. The new emerging proposal is the quantum jump.

    I reccomend reading Darwin's Black Box for some more information on this.


    A fact of genetics is that trait changes have a ceiling. This perhaps is the biggest obstacle to gradual change through micro-evolution. Each rung of DNA is made up of four chemicals called nucleotides, designated by the symbols: A (adenine), G (guanine), C (cytosine), and T (thymine). These rungs of DNA are combined to provide a blueprint of the traits that organism will have. If you took all the DNA in the human body and put it in written format, it would fill up one million volumes the size of a 500 page encyclopedia. With all this genetic data, if two people could have as many children as there are atoms in the universe, no two children would be identical. Though there are a limitless combinations of traits that we possess, there is a limit to how far each trait can change. There is a limit to the number of combinations of these chemicals; therefore there are a limited number of trait variations. No new genetic material can be added. Trait changes result in re-arranging the genetic code that is already present. Mixing the available genetic code will produce variations in the trait but will not change into a completely different feature. For example, your parents genes are combined to produce your various traits. People have several different colors of hair, eyes, and skin, but without a mutation, these traits will remain within its boundaries. There are mutations that can occur and mutations almost always cause diseases or defects. However, even under mutation, skin will still be skin and eyes will still be eyes. Because of the code barrier, there are a limited number of variations in eye color. Different genes can create distinct variations but there is a limit. There can be rapid changes but inevitably, there is a return to the norm.
    Who doesn't love a little BBQ?
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      Originally posted by Nick View Post
      What about the current orthodox interpretation?
      The CHURCH seems to be saying that ANYONE, of ANY religion, who lived a GOOD life, regardless of creed, will go to HEAVEN! (My priest actually said those words a number of times).

      Does the Pope go to hell because he served Hitler? (He was in the Hitler Youth.)This all needs to be sorted out.
      Like I said, I can't definitively answer all your questions. I believe what I believe. Go talk to a priest, minister, pope, etc and ask them and decide for yourself, or ask God himself for some help.

      Comment


        Interestingly nobody has raised the question: Aren't deities invented by humans to answer their own existencial questions or explain how their surrounding environment works?
        In the middle age (when people where kept dumb by church) it was thought that plagues were a spell from God. Humans try to know what happens after life (a very genuine question)? Then they invent paradise (or hell). Whenever humans have no answer, then God is the reply to their fragile ignorance. In certain civilization, lightenings and thunderbolts were the wrath of God (who ever that god is). Bad crop this year? God's revenge for our sins. Where do we come from? God (or a UFO) created us. Damn stupid stuff. If leads me to think that religions are for ignorants, but that would not be true as some people are seeking a certain peace of mind for themself. The others should stop trying to convert the rest of the world with stupid beliefs. The more humans know (thru science), the less they put the burden of responsabilities on deities.
        Last edited by Massive Lee; 03-28-2007, 11:25 AM.
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        Comment


          Originally posted by Nick View Post
          Tell that to Job.

          Satan and God had a bar bet that people with bad lives would stray from His Word. God terrorized Job, who was a 'good and righteous man' just to teach Satan a lesson...

          Nice guy.
          I'll quote the book of Job now, since apparently you haven't read it.

          Job chapter 19 verses 13 - 27

          "God alienated my family from me; everyone who knows me avoids me. My relatives and friends have all left; houseguests forget I ever existed. The servant girls treat me like a bum off the street, look at me like they have never seen me before. I call me attendant and he ignores me, ignores me even though I plead with him. My wife can't stand to be around me anymore. I'm repulsive to my family. Even street urchins despise me; when I come out, they taunt and jeer. Everyone I've ever been close to abhors me; my dearest loved ones reject me. I'm nothing but a bag of bones; my life hangs by a thread."

          "Oh, friends, dear friends, take pity on me. God has come down hard on me! Do you have to be hard on me too? Don't you ever tire of abusing me?"

          "If only my words were written in a book-better yet, chiseled in stone! Still, I know that God lives-the One who gives me back my life- and eventually he'll take his stand on earth. And I'll see him-even though I get skinned alive!-see God myself, with my very own eyes. Oh, How I long for that day!"

          Now, through all of that, Job praised God with every part of him, and everything he had left.

          Chapter 42 verses 10 - 17

          After Job had interceded for his friends, God restored his fortune - and then doubled it! All his brothers and sisters and friends came to his house and celebrated. They told him how sorry they were, and consoled him for all the trouble God had brought him. Each of them brought generous housewarming gifts.
          God blessed Job's later life more than his earlier life. He ended up with fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, on thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. He named the first daughter Dove, the second, Cinnamon, and the third, Darkeyes. There was not a woman in that country as beautiful as Job's daughters. Their father treated them as equals with their brothers, providing the same inheritance.
          Job lived on another hundred and forty years, living to see his children and grandchildren- four generations of them! Then he died-an old man, a full life.


          I'd say that's pretty freakin' nice.

          Comment


            Nonetheless, being forced to suffer by divine will...that's terror.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Nick View Post
              Nonetheless, being forced to suffer by divine will...that's terror.
              Well did you think Satan wants to take you to dinner and a movie and give you a kiss at the end of your date? of course its terror. The point is that its satan, not God.

              Here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc

              Maybe with pretty pictures and cartoon's you can wrap your head around it.
              Who doesn't love a little BBQ?
              Griot's Garage at a Deep Discount

              Comment


                Don't wanna make Saddam jealous....tee-hee!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Kruzen View Post
                  When a trait is critical for the survival of the species, it must be fully functional or the species will die off and any ‘evolutionary progress’ would be lost. This need for completeness can be clearly observed from the most primitive single celled animal to the most complex mammal.
                  Last time I looked there are plenty of birds that do not have the ability to fly. THey either have underdeveloped wings or they simply do not need flight for survival.

                  Ever heard of the tree down theory?

                  "The central theme of the trees-down theory is that gravity was the source of energy: a small climbing dinosaur first parachuted down, then began to stay aloft longer by gliding, and finally acquired powered flight. As those abilities developed, feathers became larger and more specialized, providing greater lift and thrust. In contrast, a theropod struggling toward flight directly from the ground up, without any gliding stage, had gravity working against it."

                  There is strong fossil evidence to support this. Theropods that are wingless, have transitional stages, and theropods with fully hinged & feathered wings.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by trashcop 80s 80s View Post
                    Last time I looked there are plenty of birds that do not have the ability to fly. THey either have underdeveloped wings or they simply do not need flight for survival.

                    Ever heard of the tree down theory?

                    "The central theme of the trees-down theory is that gravity was the source of energy: a small climbing dinosaur first parachuted down, then began to stay aloft longer by gliding, and finally acquired powered flight. As those abilities developed, feathers became larger and more specialized, providing greater lift and thrust. In contrast, a theropod struggling toward flight directly from the ground up, without any gliding stage, had gravity working against it."

                    There is strong fossil evidence to support this. Theropods that are wingless, have transitional stages, and theropods with fully hinged & feathered wings.
                    Thats precisely the point, animals with underdeveloped wings that still exist are a statement for the evidence of creation. Evolutionists themselves are puzzled by how eyes and wings came about based on gradual evolution.

                    "The common feature of eyes and wings is that they can only perform their functions if they are developed as an entire entity. To put it another way, a creature cannot see with a deficient eye, no fly with half a wing. How these organs came about remains a still unexplained secret. - Engin Korur Turkish Evolutionists"
                    Who doesn't love a little BBQ?
                    Griot's Garage at a Deep Discount

                    Comment


                      Can I suggest a new rule on r3v? We all agree that zoophilia and kiddy porn are not acceptable. Can we also include those who read a few verses of:
                      a) Bible
                      b) Coran
                      c) dark ages creationism bullshit.

                      Please.

                      We can agree or not on weapon laws. This is fair game. But basing a discussion on fairy tales is just plain stupid.
                      Brake harder. Go faster. No shit.

                      massivebrakes.com

                      http://www.facebook.com/pages/Massiv...78417442267056





                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Kruzen View Post
                        Thats precisely the point, animals with underdeveloped wings that still exist are a statement for the evidence of creation. Evolutionists themselves are puzzled by how eyes and wings came about based on gradual evolution.

                        "The common feature of eyes and wings is that they can only perform their functions if they are developed as an entire entity. To put it another way, a creature cannot see with a deficient eye, no fly with half a wing. How these organs came about remains a still unexplained secret. - Engin Korur Turkish Evolutionists"
                        ______________________
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                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Massive Lee View Post
                          Can I suggest a new rule on r3v? We all agree that zoophilia and kiddy porn are not acceptable. Can we also include those who read a few verses of:
                          a) Bible
                          b) Coran
                          c) dark ages creationism bullshit.

                          Please.

                          We can agree or not on weapon laws. This is fair game. But basing a discussion on fairy tales is just plain stupid.

                          Lee, if you want to implement a gag order, you need to play fair and put the same gag on the evolutionist theories. I don't buy evolution as anything more than a fairy tale, so why should you be allowed to talk about it.

                          We can both agree that nobody is going to change anyone else's mind here, so I'm with you as to just dropping the whole subject, but your post makes it sound like I need to listen to evolution, but I'm not allowed to respond with anything you don't believe in.

                          And before you get all worked up, I clearly understand things are evolving presently, but I don't buy evolution as a reason the universe exists. I'm sorry, but nothing is nothing, and you can't get nothing to become a universe - it's like saying 0+0=8972374664247. So just by that, the only reason I can even fathom that makes sense in my little brain is creation. And that's perfectly reasonable TO ME.

                          I won't push religion on anyone if they don't push evolution on me, plain & simple.


                          Oh, and to the "live a good life" folks - sorry.

                          John 3:16 - it's just that simple.

                          And the guy who says watching a football game, or having a couple frosties, is a major mortal sin - pure crap. Jesus turned water into wine, proving He could appreciate a celebration just as much as anyone. So whoever was the inspiration for your post messed you up good.


                          And the "Job was punished by God" guy - you are wrong too. God allowed the Devil to act upon Job's life. God didn't do it. There is a distinction, and it's big enough to merit correction.


                          I must admit though, I've read a lot of the evolution theories here - I do find it entertaining reading though, and if I was in the market for an answer to "how did we get here?" , you all would put up a decent arguement, but that boat sailed a long time ago, as did most every one here. We all either got on board with God, or a monkey.

                          It's not how you handle the good times, but the faith you keep in the bad that defines you.

                          Comment


                            Think about it people. Think about the complexities of the human body! Think about the miracle of life! We just evolved so much as to when our arm is tickled or bothered our brain tells us to scratch our arm? This just happens over time?

                            Comment


                              Actually, eyes began as simple light-sensing apparata, and wings have a clear evolutionary lineage as well.

                              Further, there are burrowing creatures and fish that have atrophied eyes due to their environment. It's a two way street. Eyes take lots of energy to run, and if you don't need them, you don't have them.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by bilson View Post
                                Think about it people. Think about the complexities of the human body! Think about the miracle of life! We just evolved so much as to when our arm is tickled or bothered our brain tells us to scratch our arm? This just happens over time?
                                all i care about is if my schlong still gets hard when manipulated. thats creation enough for me
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