Gun Thread

[SpecM]

just got a Mosin m91/30 last week from Gander Mountain. Its a 1932 with a hex receiver, all numbers-matching, and a beautiful stock. I had to reshape the sear and bolt stop (worn so bad the pin would drop while locking) and I need to clean all the cosmoline off, so i havnt fired it yet. but I'm pretty proud off it.

plus, ammo is still cheapish

[unevolved]

Mosin's are fucking awesome. Great at blowing holes in stuff, and you can't beat the price of the gun or the ammo.

[chance]

I spent a good amount of ammo blowing up rocks with a mosin. They are great fun.

[unevolved]

Ever blow up a toilet with a Mosin? Best time I've ever had shooting something.

[GaryE30]

The file is all over the net. I know there are build parties all over the place. That is why these 80% lowers are popping up everywhere. My understanding is if you hit the button to run the CNC you are the one building the lower.


Edit: Quick search shows Cncguns.com has the cad file online. Still looking for the G Code file.

Yeah, I've got .igs files for a ton of gun stuff, however programming the tool path for the CNC still needs to be done in a CAM software (GibbsCAM, MasterCam, etc). I would make sure if you're doing this that you research as much as possible on the programming and the proper method of chucking up your piece that way you not only push a "start" button but you setup the machine (both workpiece and code and tool selection) so you can cover your ass.

I have a feeling though that not many machine shops will work with your request. This is one of those thing that you either do at home with home machines or you actually run your own machine shop and do it there.

[Vedubin01]

Gary, you are a bit paranoid about this... its not that you are mass producing weapons of mass destruction. Im sure that a machine shop that does not know you is not going to help you but there are channels to find a shop that will. I have a friend in Orlando that owns a pretty large shop that I know I could get everything done but the drive to Orlando from Miami makes it not worth making one.

[rwh11385]

Prices are on the way down but its still hard to find some things. Like Gary said Ammo on the other hand is fucking retarded. Thank you GOV for trying to buy it all up so us Civs cant acquire it.

Yeah, some local shops have a bit more inventory of guns than in the recent past but ammo obviously is still scarce. A small one on the way home has a few boxes of .22LR and I get 2 (the max) every week as I roll back to town. (Apparently Gander Mountain has a line around the building each Friday morning when they restock although who wants to deal with that?) But I wouldn't blame the government for that low supply (compared to demand) due to massive hoarding (and marked up re-selling). It's easy to find for outrageous prices... people want it to go back to how it was without having to hunt and beg or pay an arm or leg. There's a local forum that posts where places have stuff in stock and usually sell out again quickly - it's not the government running in and buying up all the boxes.

Q: Why is ammunition in certain calibers so hard to find?
A: The current market and environment is causing stronger than usual demand for products in our industry.

Q: Are certain contracts taking ammunition away from civilians?
A: No. We remain committed to serving all channels of our business. The majority of our product serves the commercial market.

Q: Why can't you just make more ammunition?
A: Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year.

It'd be great if ATK could add a ton more capacity, but then again if they invest to the point of making supply more readily available and people stop hoarding as much because of it, then maybe they won't need as much additional capacity. To make that kind of capital expenditure for what they might see as a temporary market condition may not make sense. It's essentially what bubbles are all about - suspected shortage or limited resources causing fear and encourages people to buy up which creates a real storage, with people running into speculate and profit, and eventually subsides (hopefully).

Hopefully it calms down. Until then, there's gunbot.

[rwh11385]

The file is all over the net. I know there are build parties all over the place. That is why these 80% lowers are popping up everywhere. My understanding is if you hit the button to run the CNC you are the one building the lower.


Edit: Quick search shows Cncguns.com has the cad file online. Still looking for the G Code file.

There's also plenty of movies available for download on the internet, but that doesn't make it legal. Gary is just trying to help make sure you CYA. There are some places hosting such rentals in the country as you mentioned and I would defer to them on how to do it right, instead of just relying on your understanding - I'd be absolutely sure about something like that. And almost as importantly, I'd be sure that your blank doesn't get screwed up by slapping it down and hitting the button without good research on setup and operation, machine specs, etc.

Gary, you are a bit paranoid about this... its not that you are mass producing weapons of mass destruction. Im sure that a machine shop that does not know you is not going to help you but there are channels to find a shop that will. I have a friend in Orlando that owns a pretty large shop that I know I could get everything done but the drive to Orlando from Miami makes it not worth making one.

I think it's good to be careful especially if you are the one organizing them and not just assume anything.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=11204726&postcount=247

We were advised by Jason that the ATF now considers providing someone a pre-programmed CNC machine with fixtures in place as "manufacturing".

Plus, you don't want to screw up your workpiece by trusting some random file off the internet.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=11419672&postcount=9

Even if someone were to post the g-code required to finish machine an 80% it would hardly be useful to anyone. There are a whole lot of other variables that go into it. Even if the code were formatted correctly per the machine, there would have to be an extremely detailed and explicit setup sheet detailing tool size length, number, coordinate work offset, tool zero, part orientation, etc... At this point if you readily understand all of this (or have someone who does) you might as well do the leg work to program on your own accord. You are much more likely to scrap your part running some random g-code.

If you are the one helping to organize, it'd be good to know enough and be certain everything is set right - from the code to the machine to the fixturing, etc.

If this was Miami instead of Tampa I'd think it might be you but has some good comments too:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/607400_Anyone_Know_Where_to_Find_a_Shop_Who_Can_Complete_80__Lowers_Near_Tampa_St__Pete_FL_.html

They would have to have a manufacturing license! Why not buy a complete receiver and form 1 it?

What I'd heard (could be wrong of course) is that if I 'press the button' I am considered the manufacturer and since it is for my personal use, I wouldn't need a mfg license. I'm fine with buying a complete receiver but I figured if I complete an 80% one and have it engraved at the same time I could save myself the trouble of finding someone locally or sending it off to be engraved.

The "press the button" distinction is entirely theoretical, derived from conversations where people are trying to figure out the limits of the law. To the best of my knowledge you still need to do 6 or 7 manual setups even on a relatively good CNC mill; I can't see being able to do it with one setup on anything but the most advanced 7 digit $$$ machining centers. *Maybe* in the future the "press a button" scenario will apply to 3D printed lowers, but even they tend to need some trim work for pin holes, etc.

I believe that, as a community, we REALLY need to be careful about this. There is an appearance that people are looking to use the 80% rules to purchase - not make - a new, unpapered firearm. It's bad for 3 reasons: it will start to draw more legislative attention, more regulatory attention, and more personal attention. Legislatively I'm surprised DIY builds haven't been on the agenda post Sandy Hook. From a regulatory standpoint, the BATFE could change their definition of "build" to mean starting from a forging. And finally, one does NOT want to be parsing what "manufacture" means with a BATFE agent personally - if you are at that point, you are going to jail regardless of whether you complied with the law.

I'm not saying this to discourage DIY builds, or cast legal aspersions on them. What I am saying is that we ought to be very clear about what we *know* is legal, and what we *think* is legal, along with a clear picture of the consequences if our thinking is incorrect (or if a BATFE agent disagrees with it.)

I made something in school that taught us how to use lathes and mills, etc. and also required a CNC task. We handed the operator the part and he put it in the fixture and ran it. Would I have been the maker if I pressed the button? Questionable. If I fixtured it? Maybe. How much do you do when you use a lathe or mill? These are questions to consider, but if you move the workpiece for each setup, you'd probably be better off than just tapping "go" after someone else does that stuff. But I'd be damned sure to clarify about the calguns thread about ATF calling pre-programmed CNC + fixtures. If you help make sure the setup is good and help make sure the other participants are aware of how to setup it up (for learning and also to not screw shit up), then might be good.

But the DIYer style CNC rental "build party" can be done, with this update from a month ago: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=332

Keep in mind that Arms Specialty and Tool (AS&T) in Orange still offers CNC rentals. I get all my lowers milled at this shop. The owner, Gabe, has 3 high end CNC machines and he has been a machinist for over 30 years. Gabe knows his stuff and he has the milling of the lowers dialed in.

The ATF just paid AS&T another visit this week and they corrected a few very minor issues within his shop, but they still approved of his CNC rental business for milling out lowers.

So does this operation:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2400918&postcount=7

The build party host supplies all tooling. He will guide you through process and you will be done in about thirty minutes per blank. His jigs are not for rent out to other users, and have been made specific to FO15 80% blanks.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2405067&postcount=15

It can be shipped to you, or you can pick up at my shop. Then if you want in on the build party, we will get you scheduled for one. You then take to his shop, follow his instructions, and machine it to a functional receiver. Pay him 50 bucks for the use of his machines.

Jigs specific to a blank and set up for quality, but focus on guiding instead of him doing it for you.

Yeah, I've got .igs files for a ton of gun stuff, however programming the tool path for the CNC still needs to be done in a CAM software (GibbsCAM, MasterCam, etc). I would make sure if you're doing this that you research as much as possible on the programming and the proper method of chucking up your piece that way you not only push a "start" button but you setup the machine (both workpiece and code and tool selection) so you can cover your ass.

I have a feeling though that not many machine shops will work with your request. This is one of those thing that you either do at home with home machines or you actually run your own machine shop and do it there.

Exactly. A lot of machine shops probably won't (or can't) have randoms coming in and renting time because of security of the products they work on or certifications they have to keep or lean manufacturing practices you might upset, or they already have 3 shifts and it'd be in the way. You could have a machine with everyone wanting to do it too along with the manager but might complicate things too much to go through with it. However, like you said if you know the owner then things are different.

You could seek out owners of independent small-time shops, but another thing to look into would be maker faires or hackerspaces or DIY-type shops that cater exactly to hobbyists. I believe your intent is a fun group activity and connecting more with the hobby, not manufacturing for production, which is exactly what the maker scene is about. Some could possibly object to it because of their beliefs or fears of complications with ATF, whatever, but others don't like authority and value independence of creating their own shit. Or just make a maker space of your own, much like people have thought of owning their own garage space rentals, etc.

Here is one in Orlando: http://familab.org/blog/about/
With one opening this month in Ft. Lauderdale: http://makerssquare.com/

As long as you focus on teaching people how to set it up properly and get in some of that make it on your own pride, then should be good IMO. Sometimes it's the spirit that counts a bit too. If you aim to skirt by with the least amount of effort and have some machinist do everything but push the button to get what you want, that's walking the border line in the grey area... but if you want to have a build party-like experience with a CNC rental and feels like a class, then that's wholly different.

Just like what this guy says:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=11213083&postcount=274

Theres a certain shop where I completed my 80% at. To avoid all this nonsense, the company is a "school" and you are there to "learn" how to use a CNC machine. your learning materials are a CNC machine and your 80%. you put your 80% in the machine as the demonstration media, you very briefly learn (very briefly is a generous term too lol) how the CNC machine starts (by pushing a button) and walla! class is dismissed.

Good luck. I know you enjoy hands-on stuff and that seems to be the focus here and should lead you straight (instead of looking to bypass laws by pretending to DIY and have someone else manufacture for you), and seriously check out the maker scene to hopefully find shops. Even if not a hackerspace or Makers Square, then someone there might know of a cool shop owner they know.

I'm around CNCs often but know I couldn't run something like that or anything really for personal use as I felt like it. However, a friend has started a makers club and would love to do it when he's up and running. I look forward to the great potential of cool projects and creations, including maybe going down this road at some point.

[xAZxE30x]

I want a 1911!!!! This week one will be mine :) I have a buyer for one of my uppers so I think I'm going to pick one up. Then if I can sell my Glock23 I'd like to pick up a bolt gun to get into some precision shooting

[Vedubin01]

good shit rwh11385

[chance]

I want a 1911!!!! This week one will be mine :) I have a buyer for one of my uppers so I think I'm going to pick one up. Then if I can sell my Glock23 I'd like to pick up a bolt gun to get into some precision shooting

Here was my EDC setup, until I broke the extractor :(

I LOVE this gun. Someone spent a lot of money building it. Caspian frame, Storm Lake linkless upper, awesome trigger, and plenty accurate. Has a 10mm barrel and a .40 barrel.

[rwh11385]

good shit rwh11385

Thanks - I definitely think putting your fingerprint on your toys is cool. Like this work is pretty spectacular: http://vadertactical.com/engraving-gallery/

Maybe Gary can find out more since one of the shops is in Maryland. The CalGuns thread has the phone number for the shop which still gets thumbs up from the ATF. I think you can make a good and reasonable class/build on the info from the few threads and talking to those places and hope you succeed and then share.

[mrsleeve]

Range report: MY SHOULDER IS KILLING ME today.

1st off FN-H SLP MK1 18" (12ga auto loader for those not as well versed)

OUT FUCKING STANDING.

After a few quick adjustments to the Vortex Razor Red dot to keep the shot from bouncing off the ground in front of the target. I had bought several boxes of different light (2 3/4") game/target loads to see which it preferred, as I had read in places where people were having issues cycling the light stuff. Well this thing ATE everything from cheap ass Estate, to Federal, to Winchester to Remington with out a hiccup or an inkling of an issue with any of it. With the light loads the recoil is very mild (FOR A 12 GAUGE) I would say very close to, but a touch harsher than my LMT 308. Also the action soaks it up very well so the recoil impulse is very smooth an I was able to keep muzzle climb under control under rapid fire until about shot 4-5, it holds 8 with one in the tube and 9 if you ghost one in on the carrier............

After about 50 or so rounds of the lighter stuff it was time to swap the gas piston out for the "heavy" one. Yes the shot gun comes with a light and heavy gas regualtion piston for the type of loads your shooting. I ran 3 boxes of Federal 00 buck 3"mag though it and while the recoil is obviously much harsher it still remains smooth enough to allow for very fast on target follow up shots.

Pics shot by the little woman




After all that I decided to see if the Heavy gas piston would cycle the lighter loads. Which it did very well save for one Rem #6 target load didnt have quite enough ass to kick the bolt all the way back. I got a weak ejection but missed the next shells base and slammed closed with no shell in the tube. From most of my understanding after about 250 rounds of the High brass stuff on the heavy piston it breaks in too the point where is will cycle the light stuff (other than white box win for walmart) with nearly the same reliability of the light piston.

Conclusion- With the 90 rounds I have though it, I really think the extra coin over the 930 Mossy was well wroth it, and if you are in the market and can get your hands on one you will not be sorry. It Will serve its intended purpose with which I bought it Replacement scabbard for back country horse trips as bear deterrent and H/D gun but will need some more rounds down range before I have made up my mind 100% on it. As of now it will fill a scabbard on the next pack trip though.

And the one dub has been waiting for.

Sako TRG 300W/M

Disclaimer:
I am so far outta precision practice its embarrassing. I have not shot a long gun in the last 18 months. Not to mention I was a dumb dumb and left my bipod at the house and had to stack a couple of small bags up front and had no rear bag to shoot with.

1st 4 shots, were "cheap" rem core loc 180gr SP hunting rounds to confirm bore site. A few clicks to the right, a few more clicks right, opps too much 2 left done. 1 confirmation shot with good 190gr FGGM and it was time to make a group. So there we have 5 shots with about 8-10 mins between each for cool down.

The action on this thing is amazing smooth as butter, its a little stiff on 1st lift after it goes bang but not out of the ordinary like an over charge or something. It tosses its brass in nice neat consistent pile about 10" to your right. Unbraked the recoil is manageable helps the rig is 14 1/2 lbs, but defiantly not something you want to shoot all day (especially when your not used to it) The glass is what you come to expect form Night force, though optically lacks just a tad form my zeiss optics, but I will gladly trade that small discrepancy for the durability for this application. I would like to get my hands on a Khales 6-24x56 for it someday though

I know it lives up to its rep as a sub 1/2 MOA rifle outta the box, I am just not capable of driving it to that level right now. The 5 shot string started out well 1st shot just off the edge of the bull 2ed shot was in it and nearly touching the 1st. We are up 7 rounds of W/M now with 12ga in-between during cool downs. The last 3 were fliers as I was starting to get JUMPY and twitchy in anticipation of the recoil, and mashing the trigger. All in all though about 3 MOA spread not bad for me right now I think, and if I had been hunting all shots would have = dead quick critter.

Conclusion: They are right once you have a TRG you want them ALL, I LOVE THIS RIFLE. There will be more TRG's added to my collection thats for sure. This thing may have ended my short stint into the realm of EBR's and I might go back to shooting mostly bolt guns.......


Notice the stacked bags....

[Vedubin01]

wow, that Sako TRG is so bad ass...


If anyone is looking for a MWS for a good price... here ya go. no affiliation to the seller.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_120/1193718_WTS_LMT_308MWS___2_050_shipped.html

[xAZxE30x]

Finally finished! Still need to install LPK and well you know what else

Time to decide on what can too!