The Official MMA thread...

[jflip2002]

everything you said is a matter of opinion...just like the judges. Although i dont agree with HOW the judges scored the fight IMO i agree forrest one...just a matter of opinion in how we saw the fight.

Funny part you sound so certain that rampage won....did you not hear him question himself at the end of the fight? He asked his corner guy "you think i won that?" He wasnt overly confident he won....just his fans.

the reason i mention the KO portion is because there have been posts where the feeling is only the challenger needs to KO the champ for the challenger to have a just victory. To me thats not so...you wanna win? Both fighters should work just as hard to win and With a KO/tapout there is no questions.

reality is if ramp had gotten the nod...and forrest lost, any complaining he would have done would have been pointless too...you dont like the judges decision take them out of the equation ya know?

I get your point. And in that sense, youre right. Ending it in your own manner, takes the judges out of the equation. But if it does come to the judges, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to the champ if its as close as it was.

[Coco Savage]

I get your point. And in that sense, youre right. Ending it in your own manner, takes the judges out of the equation. But if it does come to the judges, I think the benefit of the doubt should go to the champ if its as close as it was.

i understand the benefit of the doubt....but just imo you were the champ through hard work, that hard work should go into every fight. The champ should create his OWN benefit out doubt.

[Maluco]

Judging flaws resurface at UFC 86 - Ben Fowlkes - SI.com

Judging flaws resurface at UFC 86 Story Highlights
MMA shouldn't borrow boxing's 10-point must system or its judges
Forrest Griffin was taken down hard in the first, but he somehow won that round
Griffin-Jackson was a close fight, but the scorecards didn't show it




Forrest Griffin (right) defeated Quinton Jackson by unanimous decision at UFC 86.
AP




If fights were judged based on final appearances, UFC 86 would have been an easy call.

Luckily for Forrest Griffin, they're not. Despite looking as if he had kissed a lawnmower, the challenger picked up a unanimous decision win over Quinton "Rampage" Jackson, who left the Octagon with nothing more than a pronounced limp.

However, something about the outcome of Saturday's thrilling battle makes me wonder: Why is MMA still judged like boxing?

It's not that awarding Griffin the victory was necessarily wrong. Jackson offered no complaints about the decision, even if his trainer, Juanito Ibarra, had plenty. But looking at the judges' scorecards only reinforced my suspicion that the scoring system in mixed martial arts is seriously flawed.

Griffin-Jackson was about as close as an MMA fight could ever be; a back-and-forth battle that pitted Jackson's damaging abilities against Griffin's. The battle saw Rampage be out-worked by the understated Griffin without the challenger ever coming close to putting his opponent away.

Each man had his moments, his near misses and his squandered opportunities. But at the end of the night, the scorecards told of a dominant Griffin victory. One judge even gave all but one round to Griffin (Roy Silbert tallied a 49-46 in favor of Griffin). The round he did give to Jackson -- the fourth -- wasn't even the former champ's best frame.

Scroll back to the first round from Saturday's bout. The most noteworthy thing to happen in that five-minute span was an uppercut from Jackson that sent Griffin to the mat. Somehow, two of the three judges -- Adalaide Byrd and Nelson Hamilton -- gave that round to Griffin at 10-9. Apparently, just getting up from a knockdown is enough to win the opening round in a championship fight.

That's not to say Jackson was robbed, though. At times, his power had Griffin looking lost, though he was unable to capitalize on any of those opportunities. At the same time, Griffin didn't exactly overwhelm his opponent. What Griffin did manage to do, though, was stay busy. He controlled the center of the Octagon and dictated the pace of the fight.

But is that enough to beat the champion? To the judges, yes, yes it is. And by a healthy margin.

Of course, it's easy to blame the judges. All too often they are boxing judges who don't understand enough about the ground game and the nuances of MMA to make sense of what they see in the fight. But part of the problem is that MMA is using a scoring system that was meant for a completely different sport.

There's no such thing as a near submission in boxing. There are no takedowns that only result in a man getting right back to his feet, there is no meaningful equivalent to controlling a man in a dominant position on the mat. So how can judges possibly be expected to make MMA action fit into a boxing framework on their scorecards?

The outcome of the UFC 86 main event may not have changed, even without the 10-point must system. And any time a fight goes to the judges, we have to be prepared for the inevitable subjectivity that could potentially ruin the day.

Still, the numbers should make us stop and think. MMA needs its own scoring system tailored to fit the specific demands of the sport. It shouldn't be satisfied to borrow one from boxing, just like it shouldn't be content to borrow their judges.

[Coco Savage]

good hopefully this fight will revamp scoring system.

[joshh]

I bet a strict point system would work. I.E. no need of judges. Each fighter gets a certain amount of points for his production.
Jab=1 point
Solid hit=2 points
Knock down=8 points
Take down=4 points
Any dazing of the other fighter=7 points
Etc.

All you would need is two guys to keep track of it throughout the fight and determine the winner based on a point system.
Just an idea.

[Coco Savage]

I bet a strict point system would work. I.E. no need of judges. Each fighter gets a certain amount of points for his production.
Jab=1 point
Solid hit=2 points
Knock down=8 points
Take down=4 points
Any dazing of the other fighter=7 points
Etc.

All you would need is two guys to keep track of it throughout the fight and determine the winner based on a point system.
Just an idea.

well arent most of those stats kept already?

Yup check the ufc site....which just adds to the fuel of bad judge scoring

http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Griffin-Rampage.html

[joshh]

Whoa, never saw that before.
I guess I'm wondering why they don't just use that. It shows production.

[Coco Savage]

ya its on the site.. its pretty cool. Everyone here should enjoy it.


Ya thats why when you mentioned that im like well its in place, but yet they still dont use it officially.... :shrugs: makes no sense

[NOMAD]

There's some buzz that this was supposed to happen. Hmmm, Jackson has a lot of interesting outside of ring projects going on over the next year, and Griffin is UFC made. He "legitemizes" The Ultimate Fighter TV show. He's been built up so much that every UFC fanboi (as opposed to MMA fan) knows his life story along with tito, matt, chuck and randy. Oops, did I say Randy? We're supposed to believe he doesn't exist anymore.

So now Griffin will get a "gimme" fight and will get to fight Liddel in no time. This way they have their boy Chuck back in the spotlight for one last run till they can't dodge Rampage anymore...

So who's tired of the UFC's incestuous fight pairings and is looking forward to the "Banned" event? It'll be a good night of fights, with the good cards from Affliction, the free 'meh' UFC event and FSN broadcasting all the undercards to the Banned event as well. Nice!

[E30Kaiser]

If you look at the UFC card it has the potential of being a very VERY exciting fight from a lot of no name people. Then again new people in the octagon sometime have a problem so it could turn out boring from cage shock. At least we will see an interesting Silva v Irvin fight.

[Coco Savage]

There's some buzz that this was supposed to happen. Hmmm, Jackson has a lot of interesting outside of ring projects going on over the next year, and Griffin is UFC made. He "legitemizes" The Ultimate Fighter TV show. He's been built up so much that every UFC fanboi (as opposed to MMA fan) knows his life story along with tito, matt, chuck and randy. Oops, did I say Randy? We're supposed to believe he doesn't exist anymore.

So now Griffin will get a "gimme" fight and will get to fight Liddel in no time. This way they have their boy Chuck back in the spotlight for one last run till they can't dodge Rampage anymore...

So who's tired of the UFC's incestuous fight pairings and is looking forward to the "Banned" event? It'll be a good night of fights, with the good cards from Affliction, the free 'meh' UFC event and FSN broadcasting all the undercards to the Banned event as well. Nice!

LOL lovely post man....


you figure after Elites debacle on prime time TV...ufc would try to avoid such controversies

[NOMAD]

UFC has its head up its own @$$ so they don't seem to care what their fixed fights look like.

That's the problem with having a combination of promoter, agent and event creator all in one. The UFC acts as agents for the fighters and signs them to restrictive contracts. Then they only let them fight their own stable of fighters (obviously) in their own promoted events. The fighters lose out because they really don't have anyone fighting for their own best interests. They only have the UFC fighting for the UFC's best interests.
It'd be like Don King only letting his own stable of fighters fight among themselves in matchups he makes.


I feel bad for the fighters who are iced for a year before their next fight or who are missing out on some good paychecks for the fights they do get. There is always potential for seeing a good fight, I'm not mad at the fighters, unless they give up.

[NOMAD]

OK, and what's up with Rogan's announcing? I know I'll step on some toes because "he's so funny" and "he trains with blah blah" or "dude, he's a funny guy" but seriously... he's not a good announcer! I'm tired of hearing "that's some next level Jiu Jitsu!" or "that's a goat's vagina!" from him. He's always pumping up one guy and misses some key moments in fights. Kenny Florian was way better. Bas Rutten is better.
The only reason they keep him is he appeals to the college UFC fanboi crowd because "he's so funny".
rant off

[Coco Savage]

OK, and what's up with Rogan's announcing? I know I'll step on some toes because "he's so funny" and "he trains with blah blah" or "dude, he's a funny guy" but seriously... he's not a good announcer! I'm tired of hearing "that's some next level Jiu Jitsu!" or "that's a goat's vagina!" from him. He's always pumping up one guy and misses some key moments in fights. Kenny Florian was way better. Bas Rutten is better.
The only reason they keep him is he appeals to the college UFC fanboi crowd because "he's so funny".
rant off

nomad ill agree...i have never cared for rogan's announcing

[joshh]

UFC has its head up its own @$$ so they don't seem to care what their fixed fights look like.

That's the problem with having a combination of promoter, agent and event creator all in one. The UFC acts as agents for the fighters and signs them to restrictive contracts. Then they only let them fight their own stable of fighters (obviously) in their own promoted events. The fighters lose out because they really don't have anyone fighting for their own best interests. They only have the UFC fighting for the UFC's best interests.
It'd be like Don King only letting his own stable of fighters fight among themselves in matchups he makes.


I feel bad for the fighters who are iced for a year before their next fight or who are missing out on some good paychecks for the fights they do get. There is always potential for seeing a good fight, I'm not mad at the fighters, unless they give up.

The basic idea of what they are doing isn't wrong, their just doing it in a stupid way.
First thing they need too do is allow more fights.
They're worried about the "now" money. Not the future of the sport.
But to say the fights are fixed I think is a stretch. White himself has had some serious words about judging in the past. Or they are still using judges to tilt the scale the way they want.
Regardless Rampage did not do well defending his new belt.