r3vegans? veggies?

[devonjordan]

I love how when you talk about being top of the food chain you all completely take intelligence of the equation, and jump straight to weather or not you could kill something with your bare hands. We're on the top of the food chain because we're the first mammals to use tools.

Nope, but I get what your saying.

[jflip2002]

Youre probably right. Right now, thats my concern in my life. Its my hobby. Maybe at another point in my life I may go back to eating fish as my meat, with the ocassional chicken. It goes beyond just being large, or building muscle. Proteins are a crucial part of the human diety. You have carbs, fat and protein. The average person ideally should be 40C/40P/20F. Its hard to maintain that while eating shit food.

Like BigD said, its not healthier necessarily. My primary dinner (when eating carbs too) is a Chicken breast, baked yam, and cottage cheese (my lunches are similar too, minus the yam, add some brown rice). My buddy Eric I work with (vegetarian, wife is a vegan) walks around here with donuts, pop tarts and eats pasta or pizza REGULARLY. All this nasty shit just to not kill an animal. Or like BigD said sandwich Vs. Twinkie and a pepsi. I know when I was a vegetarian all I ate were bean and cheese burritos, pastas, and cheese pizza, with the ocassional fish entree. I may have had a piece of shit chicken die for me, but it sure was healthier than my donuts and cheese pizza.

Im ok with not eating animals primarily, but most people are sacrificing their own health, which in essence is their own life, for an animals. Maybe Im a selfish fuck, but I love myself 100x more than any animal.

(I know I was all over the board with that one)

[Schniddy]

First let me say, I take no sides on this issue. I do the best I can to eat healthy, and I don't adhere to any specific set of rules. My girlfriend is pescatarian for that matter.

But for arguments sake, don't you think that eating other animals is part of the natural order of life? Given, I think the way that we raise animals to be killed is a paradox in itself, but imagine when the Native Americans hunted buffalo to survive...was it wrong back then?

Where do we draw the line? It's a fuzzy area no doubt about it.

Because we have the means and technology.
"For the sake of our own satisfaction"

The native americans wern't killing buffalo for the sake of there own satisfaction, it was for survival. We don't need to kill anything to physically survive now a days. There are alternatives and yes you can be just as strong and still be a vegan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig

You don't have to be vegan to agree with the concept. There is a right and a wrong to mostly everything. Technically speaking, veganism is the right way, moraly. edit: Weather you abide by these moral beliefs is up to the individual.

[jflip2002]

So the indians werent killing buffalo because they were easy targets and were tasty? Their soil was probably in 100x better shape than ours today, due to our soil degredation. They could have grown veggies back then, just like we do now.

"technically speaking, veganism is the right way". Pretty much its people like you who are so certain that veganism is the absolute correct way to go, which makes us hate you people. TECHNICALLY speaking, according too all studies and research, veganism is NOT the right way to go. If you have 6 servings of bread, 2 of fruit, 3 of veggies, 2 of dairy, you just left your meat at a big fat 0. So TECHNICALLY, its incorrect. You make me want to punch a vegan in his face now.

[BigD]

Technically speaking, veganism is the right way.

Can you please define for me what, in your opinion, is meant by "technically right"? I'm not sure you realize what it would take to feed 6.7 billion vegans on a daily basis. (hint: you can forget about organic food, and pretty much every large grazing animal would have to die because they would need to be displaced to use the fertile soil - and in turn any carnivore which depends on the grazing animals for sustenance)

EDIT: The one good thing that would come out of it is that US, Russia and Canada would be the dominant economic powers in the world, since they are the only countries in the world with the means to have an agriculture system to support any meaningful population size (relative to that of the world).

[jflip2002]

Also "You can be just as strong and be a vegan". Very rare. Put me with 99 vegans in a weight room and I lift more. There has been ONE successful vegg body builder, bruce pearl. Every other vegan out there are weak pussies (wanna make bold statements, I can as well).

[Schniddy]

In my experience, the vast majority of the people living this lifestyle are as far from unselfish as it gets. Everywhere they go they announce their lifestyle choice like the arrival of the king - if they could have trumpeters to play them into a room with an announcer, they'd have them. The announcement would go something like:

Bingo, people are douches about it. Vegans are probably more likely to be arrogant assholes than not. There is also a correlation between vegans and left wing wackos.

I'm all for self-sacrifice but if you make others' lives difficult, that's not self-sacrifice, that's sacrifice-everyone-for-self. I disagree with anything taken to the absolutely absurd. It's great if you want to avoid eating meat. But if you go to someone's house, who went to great trouble to prepare a meal for you which happens to have meat, don't be a fucking prick and have some - it's not going to kill you, put your principles on the shelf for 30 minutes, make another human being happy - that's self-sacrifice. If you're on the road, you're starving and you find a convenience store which has nothing but some fresh deli and milk, and a pile of chips and twinkies - guess what the healthier choice is at the moment?

That is one of the consequences of being vegan and sticking to your beliefs. If you’re going to be a true vegan, you’re not going to put yourself in that position. How is sticking to your guns by not eating meat at a friend’s house any different than refusing to drink or do drugs?

Again, I'm not vegan. I love meat. I eat fast food regularly. I don't preach veganism like its a religion. This topic came up and I've recently been enlightened with a logical explanation to veganism, so why not share the wisdom?

Also "You can be just as strong and be a vegan". Very rare. Put me with 99 vegans in a weight room and I lift more. There has been ONE successful vegg body builder, bruce pearl. Every other vegan out there are weak pussies (wanna make bold statements, I can as well).

That was a bold statement on my part. Let just say, "It’s possible". So, if your goal in life is to be the strongest man, veganism probably isn't for you?

That was one concern I had. What If we all were vegans? Small, weak, puny individuals with no means of defending ourselves. It's something to ask yourself, I’m not sure really. We are coming out with laser weapons for the battle field, so is being "strong" necessarily something we need for the defense of our country? I'd say it's becoming less and less of an issue.

[blunttech]

You make me want to punch a vegan in his face now.


hahahahahahah

[eric (^__^)]

what ever happened to freegans?

[BigD]

That is one of the consequences of being vegan and sticking to your beliefs. If you’re going to be a true vegan, you’re not going to put yourself in that position. How is sticking to your guns by not eating meat at a friend’s house any different than refusing to drink or do drugs?

Again, I'm not vegan. I love meat. I eat fast food regularly. I don't preach veganism like its a religion. This topic came up and I've recently been enlightened with a logical explanation to veganism, so why not share the wisdom?

Just for the record I'm speaking generally, I'm not trying to refute anything you said, just adding my thoughts.

It just goes back to common sense. If someone asks you to use a harmful drug and you know that it will cause harm, then you need better friends. Eating a soup with some meat chunks that your grandma spent all day making just for you, for one of your rare visits, cause you USED to love it, and snub her to stick to your guns, is douchebaggery. That bowl is not going to kill you. Some people argue here that meat is slowly killing you but this isn't heroin - one bowl of the soup is not going to rattle any cages. Enjoy it and thank her. On the other hand, when someone orders a pepperoni pizza for lunch at work, saying "no thanks" isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings.

Part of human intelligence is the ability to critically analyze the information available to make the best choice. Animals can't do this - like the fly perpetually bashing into a window. It does so because it must - that's the only option it's capable of comprehending. We don't do because we must - we do because we choose to. That comes with the freedom to choose not to (or to choose not to sometimes).

[rwh11385]

Can you please define for me what, in your opinion, is meant by "technically right"? I'm not sure you realize what it would take to feed 6.7 billion vegans on a daily basis. (hint: you can forget about organic food, and pretty much every large grazing animal would have to die because they would need to be displaced to use the fertile soil - and in turn any carnivore which depends on the grazing animals for sustenance)

EDIT: The one good thing that would come out of it is that US, Russia and Canada would be the dominant economic powers in the world, since they are the only countries in the world with the means to have an agriculture system to support any meaningful population size (relative to that of the world).

Much less than it would take to feed all the animals that are being fed grain feed?

It would say US, Brazil, Argentina, China, India...

but feeding the world will be an area of concern in the future, if not sooner than later... but meat consumption won't help. But with economics, it is hard to make people not want meat when they can afford it (growing consumption in Asia)

[s0urce]

Because we have the means and technology.
"For the sake of our own satisfaction"

The native americans wern't killing buffalo for the sake of there own satisfaction, it was for survival. We don't need to kill anything to physically survive now a days. There are alternatives and yes you can be just as strong and still be a vegan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig

You don't have to be vegan to agree with the concept. There is a right and a wrong to mostly everything. Technically speaking, veganism is the right way.

You're the exact person that gives vegans the bad rep.

[jflip2002]

I dont think the arguement of us not being able to support the grains and what not, is solid. Its false, actually. Energy wise, wed be way better off serving grains and veggies, thats a fact (As far as energy goes). One thing with energy in nature, is its transfer rate is poor, you lose NINETY PERCENT of the energy. You grow 100,000 tons of veggies, it feeds 10,000 tons of animals, which we then eat. The only question would be, could we eat 1/10 of weight in animals, that we do plants? Id think not.

Im not for either stance on this, besides the extremes of both sides. There should be a median to be found.

[eric (^__^)]

anyone who worries about cheeseburgers killing them is probably going to die of a heart attack anyway!

[Schniddy]

Just for the record I'm speaking generally, I'm not trying to refute anything you said, just adding my thoughts.

It just goes back to common sense. If someone asks you to use a harmful drug and you know that it will cause harm, then you need better friends. Eating a soup with some meat chunks that your grandma spent all day making just for you, for one of your rare visits, cause you USED to love it, and snub her to stick to your guns, is douchebaggery. That bowl is not going to kill you. Some people argue here that meat is slowly killing you but this isn't heroin - one bowl of the soup is not going to rattle any cages. Enjoy it and thank her. On the other hand, when someone orders a pepperoni pizza for lunch at work, saying "no thanks" isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings.

Part of human intelligence is the ability to critically analyze the information available to make the best choice. Animals can't do this - like the fly perpetually bashing into a window. It does so because it must - that's the only option it's capable of comprehending. We don't do because we must - we do because we choose to. That comes with the freedom to choose not to (or to choose not to sometimes).

Still, why should we kill living things that are not doing harm to ourselves ;)

Again, I'm thinking like a vegan. I'm not and probably never will be one, I love my meat. I'll take back my statement of veganism being the absolute right thing to do. It's on a personal judgment standpoint. All I'm trying to say is, with the information laid out, it’s hard not to agree with veganism being the "moral" thing to do. Weather you abide by the rules of a vegan is up to the individual. yay or nay?

A 1999 meta-study of five studies comparing vegetarian and non-vegetarian mortality rates in western countries found equivalent mortality rates for vegans and those who eat meat regularly. The study also found equivalent and lower mortality rates for vegetarians and those who eat meat infrequently. [65] A 2003 study of British vegetarians, including vegans, found similar mortality rates between vegetarians and other groups.[66]

Time for a few double jr bacon cheeseburgers and some chilli :)