You WA. State guys this is for you

[nando]

that doesn't look like a peer-reviewed scientific article to me :p

[Kruzen]

that doesn't look like a peer-reviewed scientific article to me :p

Meh. The science is sound, soap does have that effect on water. Whether or not its enough to kill fish in a habitat as large as wildlife is a different story. Put soap in your fish tank at home and they will die.

[Pinepig]

how does banning car washing when there is no scientific evidence to support the law help anything? sure laws are needed to protect the enviroment - but it doesn't do any good to pay lip service to environmentalism and pass stupid laws that don't have any real effect.

This is it exactly, "feel good" laws are a bunch of crap, it makes you think your helping but your contribution to solving the problem is a fucking joke, it costs money to enforce and implement and is a colossal waste a fucking time and money that could be spent elsewhere. To show support for these types of regulations/laws actually does the cause harm.

The population declines in Salmon and whatever ocean based fish is on commercial overfishing period. Setting laws even for that in the US won't do shit other than lower our amount of reasonably priced available Salmon for us here in the US. If it's out there to be fished some country will be snatching up as much as they can, and then they will sell it to us at an inflated price because we can't fish for it ourselves.

Some of you guys need to understand that regulation of this kind of thing is a fucking looser. It's just like any other commodity, when wild Salmon get's too expensive, large fish farming will become economically attractive and once they are in place the cost will eventually be lower per pound than wild fish caught today. Abalone is like that already.

[Massive Lee]

Abundance of phosphates in lakes and rivers is indeed a major problem.

[eric (^__^)]

careful with that propaganda there, Massive Lee

[Massive Lee]

careful with that propaganda there, Massive Lee

Phosphates are currently a major problem in Canada. And it looks like Colorado has the same problem.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PTLK/1620.html

BTW After I googled "Phosphates lakes pollution", the above link was the first one on top. Therefore I can't be accused of being selective

The problem is not new. 38 years ago, the Great Lakes started feeling sick from dishwashing soap.

http://archives.cbc.ca/environment/pollution/topics/1390-8679/

[mrsleeve]

Hey massive has facts to back it up

[eric (^__^)]

Phosphates are currently a major problem in Canada. And it looks like Colorado has the same problem.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PTLK/1620.html

BTW After I googled "Phosphates lakes pollution", the above link was the first one on top. Therefore I can't be accused of being selective

you chose google, that's being selective right there

somebody ban this snarky librul

[cferb]

cferb, have you not seen them building that light rail? And do you think that that will really solve all of the problems?

I think it has the potential too, it's a long term solution though. I just got back from Japan, and you can literally go anywhere on a train, everything is within a mile of a train station, and it costs a couple bucks to ride, no more than it would to drive the same distance in the US, actually probably less.

[h0lmes]

This is it exactly, "feel good" laws are a bunch of crap, it makes you think your helping but your contribution to solving the problem is a fucking joke, it costs money to enforce and implement and is a colossal waste a fucking time and money that could be spent elsewhere. To show support for these types of regulations/laws actually does the cause harm.

The population declines in Salmon and whatever ocean based fish is on commercial overfishing period. Setting laws even for that in the US won't do shit other than lower our amount of reasonably priced available Salmon for us here in the US. If it's out there to be fished some country will be snatching up as much as they can, and then they will sell it to us at an inflated price because we can't fish for it ourselves.

Some of you guys need to understand that regulation of this kind of thing is a fucking looser. It's just like any other commodity, when wild Salmon get's too expensive, large fish farming will become economically attractive and once they are in place the cost will eventually be lower per pound than wild fish caught today. Abalone is like that already.

You ever stop to consider the fact that maybe it's not all about money and about actually preserving wildlife and the environment? I know that concept is completely foreign to most.

[jflip2002]

So my lack of a response wasnt my backing down, I just had class (marine bio) tonight. Like has been said, the oxygen levels lower, and phosphates can raise. Rising phosphates can cause algal blooms (or red tide). They lower oxygen levels, due to the rising phosphates, which cause these blooms. Thats another impact on the salmon, and other fish.

But like I already said, this isnt the ONLY factor to the decline in salmon population. It is a good and subtle place to start, though.

[Pinepig]

You ever stop to consider the fact that maybe it's not all about money and about actually preserving wildlife and the environment? I know that concept is completely foreign to most.

I kind of hit on that in my response, pass all the laws you want in the US, the other countries don't give a shit and anything not constrained within our boarders is toast anyway, you guys can continue to stroke yourselves in fantasy land or wake up and see what it really going on ( and can't do anything about ).


And just so you know, I spent a few years in school on this stuff and was a Park Ranger for 10 years, I kinda have a clue on what I'm talking about.

If you would like smoke blown up your ass I'll get a pen and write " smoke " on the side of Blunts dick.

[jflip2002]

If you would like smoke blown up your ass I'll get a pen and write " smoke " on the side of Blunts dick.

Before or after the hand job? :)

State parks would be a sweet gig. Im trying to get in with fish & game in the next year hopefully. I just need some more units before Im eligible.

[nando]

So my lack of a response wasnt my backing down, I just had class (marine bio) tonight. Like has been said, the oxygen levels lower, and phosphates can raise. Rising phosphates can cause algal blooms (or red tide). They lower oxygen levels, due to the rising phosphates, which cause these blooms. Thats another impact on the salmon, and other fish.

But like I already said, this isnt the ONLY factor to the decline in salmon population. It is a good and subtle place to start, though.

so wouldn't it make sense to use phosphate free soap, rather than to enact a ban that couldn't possibly be enforced well enough to make even the smallest difference?

[jflip2002]

Im not quite sure there are phosphate free soaps... though there may be. In sort of simple terms, any "nutrient" or "contaminate" in the water column leads to the rise of phosphates, nitrates, and those nitrates lead to nitrites. Id bet lower phosphate soaps would help drastically. If they would not put a ban on necessarily washing your car, but washing your car with these harsh chemicals, that may work. Make the fine VERY heavy, so you really have no choice but to use these ultra environmentally friendly basic solvents. I think some of these soap companies would have to have a real good product though, not just reducing the phosphate by 10% or so, Id think a 50% decrease would be necessary, IMO.

But with that said, then you would still have issues, as far as the pH swings go. Something soapy will always have a basic pH, so youd need something acidic to neutralize it again. Itd be near impossible to fine a pH balanced soap that consumers would use.