Auto Bailout Bill: Dead

[Charlie]

We have one of those cars at school (one of the last few in existence). It has a shitty interior and looks ugly, but functionally its a great car for around town.

If getting 15 miles on a charge is considered "great functionality". We also had one at OSU at the FSAE team, drove it a few times. The EV1 was never a viable production vehicle. My friend's dad was a GM lobbyist back when I was in high school, so they got a lot of pre-production vehicles to test, including a number of pre-EV1 electric cars. They all had about a 40 mile "ideal" range, which dropped in half when you turned on the AC or the radio. Basically they have the functionality of a golf cart.

-Charlie

[Charlie]

[quote=Mr. Anderson;1308721]Yeah, GM already tried that bit about 10 years ago, and it um... didn't go well.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokille...riccar/[/quote]

The idiots that made that movie fail to grasp one key concept. The EV1 was built solely as a response to California's mandate in the late 90's that all auto manufacturers who sell vehicles in Calfornia have to have 2% of their total sales comprised of electric vehicles. GM built the EV1 to meet that. All other manufacturers, including Toyota and Honda balked at the mandate, and eventually california rescinded it, and the need for the EV1 went away. GM was the only company that ever even built the car.

-Charlie

[kylebes1]

I think the worst part of the auto bailout is that we are damned either way. If we pay it up front with a bail out the companies can coast into failure. If we don't we pay over time for them to fail immediately.

There is no one left to purchase their products. The population that has some shadow of justification for buying a truck or SUV are all unemployed (construction workers).

I am once again glad to be broke already.

[hugh jass]

found this over at jalopnik:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i6nLJ8iXSpohCBnQU2KERTaw_VYgD950S0A84

its not really the wages that are killing the automakers, its the pensions. the legacy costs for the big 3 are outrageous and from an era that is loooong gone.

[Charlie]

found this over at jalopnik:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i6nLJ8iXSpohCBnQU2KERTaw_VYgD950S0A84

its not really the wages that are killing the automakers, its the pensions. the legacy costs for the big 3 are outrageous and from an era that is loooong gone.

Yea, this isn't really news. It's not the current workers who are killing the Big 3, it's the fathers & Grandfathers.

This isn't going to just be a case of "fuck you UAW, take a pay cut!", this is going to be "fuck you grandpa, no more pension", people can't seem to understand that.

-Charlie

[Dave]

They will jettison the pensions in Chapter 11 like the airlines did.

What does that mean? Well, we pay them via PBGC. (Subject to caps)

I do not see how they can be viable without doing that.

[hugh jass]

Yea, this isn't really news. It's not the current workers who are killing the Big 3, it's the fathers & Grandfathers.

This isn't going to just be a case of "fuck you UAW, take a pay cut!", this is going to be "fuck you grandpa, no more pension", people can't seem to understand that.

-Charlie

If you read a lot of the posts in this thread, and every other thread that mentions unions or UAW, that is the perception. Everyone thinks that UAW assembly line workers all make $70 an hour. They fail to realize that its more complex than that.
You can't just axe the pensions without sending 10s of thousands of retired workers into a financial tailspin.

[kylebes1]

Do you wonder what people who are within 10 years of retirement age are going to do? They most likely only planned for retirement with a pension in mind... tax payers are not nearly as screwed as they are

[Charlie]

Do you wonder what people who are within 10 years of retirement age are going to do? They most likely only planned for retirement with a pension in mind... tax payers are not nearly as screwed as they are

Or they planned with their 401k which has seen all it its value accumulated over the past 11-12 years completely wiped out.

It's ugly.

-Charlie

[StereoInstaller1]

All I can say on the subject is that I am glad it isn't me trying to figure this mess out.

[kylebes1]

all i can say on the subject is that i am glad it isn't me trying to figure this mess out.

qfmft

[Jand3rson]

Josh, do you really want more competition on the unskilled & semi-skilled job market front?

-Charlie

We don't have any auto manufacturing plants here. Not to mention that none of them are in the field I work in.

Besides, what difference does it make what I think, anyway? It's been said earlier, they're going to get it, regardless.

[joshh]

I just hope this helps get the Unions more realistic about wages and benefits. It's been lop sided for too long.
Some of the laziest workers I've ever seen were Union. Although not all are this way.

[Jon325i]

I'm not going to go as far as to say I favor printing off money and handing it out to everyone, but watching a lot of these hearings, it is really frustrating to see how congress thinks they are dealing with 1995 era detroit vs 2008. It shows how clueless those putzes are we have in office.

First, the putzes. There's no question we are dealing with a bunch of nimrods here.....why are they still in power? Great question - thank you for bringing it up. Everyone seems to possess a sour opinion of Congress..."they're all corrupt I tell ya! Except my representative - great person, doing a great job!" This is the mantra being echoed in every city, in every state, across the fruited plain. The end result? We just keep fucking ourselves because we keep sending them back to DC. Here's an election day hint: in your next election, be daring....live on the edge some.....and don't punch out the chad of the candidate with 'incumbent' next to their name. Go with the underdog/unknown/less-corrupted option.

*steps off political soapbox*

Second, I don't want our tax dollars bailing out a few boardrooms full of executives who made some bad decisions. Granted, the US auto industry has made some improvements with their products in the last decade or so. However, these executives, GM in particular, made the decision to place nearly all their eggs in the SUV & pickup truck basket because for the short term it meant greater profits. Long term, they were setting themselves up for failure because they ignored the evolving trends in the marketplace. They have made their bed, now they can sleep on their stained sheets.....I don't want us footing the bill for some new satin sheets for these guys.

Thirdly, Cerebus (owners of Chrysler) has got some bowling ball sized brass sacks to be showing up to these Congressional hearings with their hand out. These guys are venture capitalists with a net worth somewhere in the 20-25 billion dollar range.....and they're asking for help? What they should be doing is a) look into their portfolio and see what can be downsized/sold off to raise some cash to keep their Chrysler investment healthy, or b) sell it off to the highest bidder. What they are doing is akin to Bill Gates asking for mortgage bailout assistance because he's affraid of losing his house.


/rant

[BillBrasky]

If you read a lot of the posts in this thread, and every other thread that mentions unions or UAW, that is the perception. Everyone thinks that UAW assembly line workers all make $70 an hour. They fail to realize that its more complex than that.
You can't just axe the pensions without sending 10s of thousands of retired workers into a financial tailspin.

You should see the excess money that a lot of local retired GM workers have. I live in a suburb of Youngstown, OH. A lot of my neighbors work at or are retired from the GM Lordstown(it's anything but) plant where they made the Cobalt, Cavalier, Vega, Impala. They all call it Generous Motors and brag about how they rip off the company by clocking in and hiding somewhere and going to sleep until their shift was over. They would steal anything and everything that wasn't bolted down. They work 40 hours a week and have multiple new cars, big houses, and too many toys to ever use. They are the most unappreciative assholes I've ever met. All they do is talk trash about a company that has provided them with a job that requires no education and pays $30-$40 an hour with full benefits to bolt on door handles.


FUCK THEM ALL!!!