Auto Bailout Bill: Dead

[Jon325i]

More UAW fingerpointing....

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/12/uaw-points-blame-for-bailout-failure-back-at-senate-republicans/

[Collin]

This is exactly what happened in the 70's gas crisis. I don't see how the big 3 couldn't have seen this coming.

Americans build bigger and bigger and crappier cars/trucks

Foreign companies continue to produce small cars with good build quality and relatively good mileage.

Americans get wiped out and take 20 years to recover.

Maybe we'll get them the next time around?

And not giving us european fords is a huge mistake, I would drive the shit out of a mondeo or the new fiesta, I wouldn't get within ten blocks of our focus (which is the old focus with uglier sheet metal and poorly placed chrome side vents).

[Massive Lee]

I regard of UAW, my understanding is that they were asked (within a very short period of time) to level salaries and benefits at par with what is paid at US Honda or Toyota plants.

I am sure that the education-less GM factory workers who earns $100k wouldn't see a problem getting a 33% pay cut if the alternative is a 100% cut after the factory has closed down...

What does strike thugh, is that if they say no to the Big Three, why haven't they say no to Wall Street? Tax payers don't want to see they tax money being given to private enterprises. Car makers, just as banks, and speculators, are private entities. I also wonder how much the big CEOs will take from their deep pockets and put back on the table... How much have they earned in the past decade, and what are the results?

[Charlie]

I am sure that the education-less GM factory workers who earns $100k wouldn't see a problem getting a 33% pay cut if the alternative is a 100% cut after the factory has closed down...

100k? Where did you pull that figure from? Top level, high seniority pay for a UAW assembly line guy with 20+ years is $28/hr, so about 60k. You start at about $9/hr, and most assembly line guys are making 14-15/hr.

Please, do tell me where you're getting 100k from.

Charlie

[Farbin Kaiber]

Please, do tell me where you're getting 100k from.

Charlie

Duh, Canadian Media, spiked with US bullshit.

[BillBrasky]

100k? Where did you pull that figure from? Top level, high seniority pay for a UAW assembly line guy with 20+ years is $28/hr, so about 60k. You start at about $9/hr, and most assembly line guys are making 14-15/hr.

Please, do tell me where you're getting 100k from.

Charlie

An employee that worked for me moved to Ohio with his dad from California when he took a job at the GM plant. His dad was a supervisor on the assembly line. He was laughing about how much his dad was making per year with his overtime and vacation pays, a whopping 107K. A classmate of mine from high school (class of '00) got a job at the plant 6 months after graduation. He started at 60K.

[Charlie]

An employee that worked for me moved to Ohio with his dad from California when he took a job at the GM plant. His dad was a supervisor on the assembly line. He was laughing about how much his dad was making per year with his overtime and vacation pays, a whopping 107K. A classmate of mine from high school (class of '00) got a job at the plant 6 months after graduation. He started at 60K.

You're factoring in overtime. Which, yea, you can make a shitload of on the line. Toss in 3-4 double shifts, and yea, I can see a six figure paycheck. Of course, that's also a 70 hour workweek.

-Charlie

[Jand3rson]

You're factoring in overtime. Which, yea, you can make a shitload of on the line. Toss in 3-4 double shifts, and yea, I can see a six figure paycheck. Of course, that's also a 70 hour workweek.

-Charlie

All that money and no time to enjoy it. I went through a couple of patches like that when I was in manufactured homes. 70+ hour weeks, taking home almost 3x what I normally made, and never being able to enjoy having it. I worked at 6 am, didn't get off until 7 or 8 pm, went home and ate dinner, watched tv for an hour, went to bed, and did it all again.

[Massive Lee]

Please, do tell me where you're getting 100k from.

$60k per year, when you add all the benefits and pension plan, years after the worker is gone, becomes $100k, which is what it costs the employer for a guy that does the same routine all day long. Chimps get paid with bananas and would do the same job...

In fact, UAW has always opposed robotization of basic tasks, which cost a lot to their employers. Robots don't need pension plans, Medic coverage, and they work 100% from Monday 8AM to Friday 5PM. UAW dug its own hole.

[Charlie]

$60k per year, when you add all the benefits and pension plan, years after the worker is gone, becomes $100k, which is what it costs the employer for a guy that does the same routine all day long. Chimps get paid with bananas and would do the same job...

Dude, that's a stupid argument. You can take damn near any US job that has healthcare benefits and a retirement plan, and double their wage to state their "effective cost". Are you saying they shouldn't have health benefits? Are you saying the guy that's worked there for 25 years shouldn't have a retirement package?

I don't get you man. You're all over Obama's nuts and ride the socialist train all the way to kookville, but you wanna take the complete opposite tact and say "fuck you guys, everyone should be a contract employee, no benefits for anyone!" like so many businesses are trying to do to a lot of industries these days.

As for "robotization", dude, it's not 1972 anymore. Go look at a modern assembly line. It's very heavily automated.

-Charlie

[Massive Lee]

Well, I wonder how come GM employes make 50% more than the ones at Honda or Toyota US plants. The big Three employees cost $14 billion more per year in extra salary and benefit over Honda and Toyota, in the US. Where is the thread from last month about that?

I am 100% for social benefits, medic aid, and pensions, but not to the point of strangling a company when it is obvious low education employees get over paid for basic tasks.

[Charlie]

Well, I wonder how come GM employes make 50% more than the ones at Honda or Toyota US plants. The big Three employees cost $14 billion more per year in extra salary and benefit over Honda and Toyota, in the US. Where is the thread from last month about that?

They don't. The actual hourly pay for employees at UAW plants vs the Honda/Toyota plants in this area is the same. Do you honestly think that Honda/Toyota could hire anyone if they were paying 50 cents on the dollar vs what you could make at a GM plant?

Seriously man, do a little research past just reading messageboard ramblings.

What's killing the Big 3 is the legacy costs of its retired employees. Healthcare, pension, etc. So what do you do there? It's not the 25 year old guy making 16 bucks an hour, it's the 75 year old guy with a bunch of health complications. How do you cut that?

-Charlie

[Farbin Kaiber]

What's killing the Big 3 is the legacy costs of its retired employees. Healthcare, pension, etc. So what do you do there? It's not the 25 year old guy making 16 bucks an hour, it's the 75 year old guy with a bunch of health complications. How do you cut that?

-Charlie

Scheduled Euthanasia?

[ed94r]

Another angle:

All these autoworker out there making $60-100K were out there *spending their money*. So all the little donut shops, restaurants, furniture stores, retailers of all types, parts sellers, shop owners, online vendors, etc, benefitted from the churn of money in the marketplace. You make it, you spend it..eventually.

These autoworkers just didn't hoard the money under their mattresses. I'm not just talking about Detroit. You'd be surprised at how many assembly plants, parts plants, modular assembly vendors, suppliers of all tiers and types are scattered through the USA. All middle class wage earners spending their money on middle class stuff.

I worked for FOMOCO in both salary and hourly functions for over 12 years. I spent the money and did my part to help pay other peoples mortgages and business expenses by participating in the economy. I earned it and I spent it. My 24V E30 was bought and paid for with the wages I earned. I may have even bought a thing or 3 on these boards.

That sucking sound you hear is the sound of all that money disappearing in the marketplace. If I was still at Ford, I may have bought that Massive Front and Rear sport brake kit. Now, just can't. There are 3 million plus people out there that are *customers* that are tied to the US auto industry for better or worse.

I'm on the fence about the buyouts..and have an open mind for both sides. I'm not adding this post to argue, just to offer a different view.

Ed

[Charlie]

That sucking sound you hear is the sound of all that money disappearing in the marketplace. If I was still at Ford, I may have bought that Massive Front and Rear sport brake kit. Now, just can't. There are 3 million plus people out there that are *customers* that are tied to the US auto industry for better or worse.

Bingo.

I'm far from a card-carrying UAW member, but it seems to me that trying to fix a disposable income consumer-based economy by trashing 3 million jobs seems somewhat counterproductive.

18 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to what a massive jobs-creation program is going to cost.

-Charlie