The Damn Catholic Church...

[ck_taft325is]

I wanted to make a thread about this topic but I'll ask here:

If you do right by the devil (ie: sinner) and go to "hell" why will you be punished when you get there?

Well, everyone is morally wrong. Everyone. Without dispute. While you can, it simply doesn't line up with the highest sense of "Right".

The argument, "Why can't everyone go to heaven if they are basically a good person?" while a valid question, it can be answered easily with, "no one is a morally "good" person". We've all driven past someone and said or felt in the core of our being that we were "better" than them. I wish I had more than a few moments to really give a full answer. My apologies that I don't right now.

The question comes down to, why do you think you deserve to go to heaven instead of hell? What have you done that erradicates all of your "sin" or wrong doings? Everyone does wrong. Everyone lies. It's not black and white and there are a lot of grey areas, but each of us knows when we've done wrong even if we can justify it. It's not because you don't believe in Christ (although in Scripture he is our saving grace) or even God, but simply because you're a bad person along with everyone else. Being a Christian doesn't make you a good person. That should be made very, very clear. It's accepting that you're not a morally "good" person and that you need a relationship with God/Christ

[Farbin Kaiber]

The question comes down to, why do you think you deserve to go to heaven instead of hell? What have you done that erradicates all of your "sin" or wrong doings? Everyone does wrong. Everyone lies. It's not black and white and there are a lot of grey areas, but each of us knows when we've done wrong even if we can justify it. It's not because you don't believe in Christ (although in Scripture he is our saving grace) or even God, but simply because you're a bad person along with everyone else. Being a Christian doesn't make you a good person. That should be made very, very clear. It's accepting that you're not a morally "good" person and that you need a relationship with God/Christ

The answer comes down to; Nothing, and nothing. The only thing that "erradicates" all your sin is the blood of Christ. The New Testament is just that, a new deal with us from God, so that his requirement of Perfection can be accepted as old law, Jesus paid the price to open the new law. Faith in him alone is the requirement, we are all sinners, and will always be. I cuss, drink, do drugs, talk bad about people, etc. All the things that the "Church" says are sins..... Duh. I guess they didn't get the memo. Sins are not what salvation is about, "Church" wants to hold you down, make you feel as if you are a bad person, and only your good gets you in.

God is not looking for Perfection, he already has that, he is surrounded by angels and sits in Heaven. He is looking for trust, the one thing he cannot create in you because of free will. Trust in him and everything else will fall by the wayside.

[HarryPotter]

Wow. Guess all those guys finding artifacts that are hundreds of thousands of years old and on ocassion, billions just don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.



What kind of mileage are you getting?

Guess you didn't read any of my other posts nubscakes.

Like i've said in almost everyone of my posts in here, the bible is a good tool to give people good moral grounding and have a decent respect for other people.

Granted I don't live by the bible nor have I read it, nor do I want to. I live my life just as good as any hardcore christian except I get to have fun. And I don't hate my aunt and uncle, I think the way they raise THEIR children is just down right asinine.

87e I think I saw god today, he said tell that queer to get some waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles. :giggle:

[Farbin Kaiber]

Granted I don't live by the bible nor have I read it, nor do I want to. I live my life just as good as any hardcore christian except I get to have fun. And I don't hate my aunt and uncle, I think the way they raise THEIR children is just down right asinine.

I agree with your qualms with the way your Aunt and Uncle raise their children, but they are their children, when you have your own batch, you can teach them all sorts of Star Wars trivia, dress them like they are headed to Hogwarts, and feed them candy, it's the parents prerogative.

And, I have fucking fun everyday of my life, banged lots of chicks, did lots of drugs, etc. , but, that has no bearing on my spiritual faith/life. You need to realize that just because some people think you have to be all sorts of strict and law-abiding to be a christian, you don't. I go to the bar, flip people off, spit and curse, go unshaven, yell at old women with walkers, and again, like I said, these things are not related, man has tried to tie them together for control.

[ck_taft325is]

You make the assumption that Christian's don't have fun. You're young and dumb, I don't begrudge you that. You haven't experienced enough of life to even say that you understand what you don't understand. You'd do wise to heed a part of the Bible you refuse to give any credit to... "Even a fool seems wise when he keeps his mouth quieted".

[Farbin Kaiber]

You make the assumption that Christian's don't have fun. You're young and dumb, I don't begrudge you that. You haven't experienced enough of life to even say that you understand what you don't understand. You'd do wise to heed a part of the Bible you refuse to give any credit to... "Even a fool seems wise when he keeps his mouth quieted".

I mean come on, Christians ran the Inquisition, that was fun, wasn't it?

[87e30]

I see what you are saying, but I am still confused.

If I obey the devil, then get sent to hell because I was led into temptation and obeyed him in a sense, why will I be punished by him (devil, satan etc.)? Its like if I worked for the mafia all my life and had a perfect track record, when it came time for me to become a made man they just killed me instead. It would seem to me that god has a pretty good relationship if he has the devil carrying out all of his dirty work. A bait and switch if you will. Its just something that has always bothered me in regards to christianity. I appreciate your input!

Again, this is how I understand it to be, according to Christianity.

That's the thing, the Devil isn't punishing you. The Devil has no control over the situation, he simply wants to bring you down with him. God is creating hell and keeping you there along with the Devil.

[87e30]

The answer comes down to; Nothing, and nothing. The only thing that "erradicates" all your sin is the blood of Christ. The New Testament is just that, a new deal with us from God, so that his requirement of Perfection can be accepted as old law, Jesus paid the price to open the new law. Faith in him alone is the requirement, we are all sinners, and will always be. I cuss, drink, do drugs, talk bad about people, etc. All the things that the "Church" says are sins..... Duh. I guess they didn't get the memo. Sins are not what salvation is about, "Church" wants to hold you down, make you feel as if you are a bad person, and only your good gets you in.

God is not looking for Perfection, he already has that, he is surrounded by angels and sits in Heaven. He is looking for trust, the one thing he cannot create in you because of free will. Trust in him and everything else will fall by the wayside.

I believe you're referring to faith by justification. Or the fact that you are saved because of the sacrifice that Jesus has made.

This interpretation was "discovered" by Luther during the protestant reformation in the 1500s. Up until that time the catholic church believed in doing works and going to confession (among other things). Therefore, this is what you believe to be the way to salvation, based on what Luther believed to be the way to salvation.

That right there is one of the most troubling things for me. Putting faith in someones translation. [The original version of James clearly states that men are saved (while by an unknown amount) by works]

Guess you didn't read any of my other posts nubscakes.

Like i've said in almost everyone of my posts in here, the bible is a good tool to give people good moral grounding and have a decent respect for other people.

Granted I don't live by the bible nor have I read it, nor do I want to. I live my life just as good as any hardcore christian except I get to have fun. And I don't hate my aunt and uncle, I think the way they raise THEIR children is just down right asinine.

87e I think I saw god today, he said tell that queer to get some waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles. :giggle:

Well, as long as you calm down this hatred towards all religion I'll gain a little bit more respect for you.

And :rofl: , I have a friend coming over later, wish me luck.

I agree with your qualms with the way your Aunt and Uncle raise their children, but they are their children, when you have your own batch, you can teach them all sorts of Star Wars trivia, dress them like they are headed to Hogwarts, and feed them candy, it's the parents prerogative.

And, I have fucking fun everyday of my life, banged lots of chicks, did lots of drugs, etc. , but, that has no bearing on my spiritual faith/life. You need to realize that just because some people think you have to be all sorts of strict and law-abiding to be a christian, you don't. I go to the bar, flip people off, spit and curse, go unshaven, yell at old women with walkers, and again, like I said, these things are not related, man has tried to tie them together for control.

This is what you believe. Personally, I think that if I were making the statement that I believe in Jesus/God and that he has saved us, I would want to try and emulate his behavior more. Again, this comes down to how YOU view it. For me, doing many of those things that you listed would not be how Jesus acted today, and I would not feel comfortable calling myself a Christian while simultaneously taking part in those activities.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I'm not saying that I don't do good, but I'm saying that the bad I've done will not limit my ability to gain eternal life.

[BobombETA]

I'll just leave this here.

[ck_taft325is]

I believe you're referring to faith by justification. Or the fact that you are saved because of the sacrifice that Jesus has made.

This interpretation was "discovered" by Luther during the protestant reformation in the 1500s. Up until that time the catholic church believed in doing works and going to confession (among other things). Therefore, this is what you believe to be the way to salvation, based on what Luther believed to be the way to salvation.

That right there is one of the most troubling things for me. Putting faith in someones translation. [The original version of James clearly states that men are saved (while by an unknown amount) by works]




Well, as long as you calm down this hatred towards all religion I'll gain a little bit more respect for you.

And :rofl: , I have a friend coming over later, wish me luck.



This is what you believe. Personally, I think that if I were making the statement that I believe in Jesus/God and that he has saved us, I would want to try and emulate his behavior more. Again, this comes down to how YOU view it. For me, doing many of those things that you listed would not be how Jesus acted today, and I would not feel comfortable calling myself a Christian while simultaneously taking part in those activities.

While semi-correct about Luther, it is, well, incorrect information. When I get a bit more time to sit down and get a better answer, I'll post it on up.

Most Biblical "interpretation" is reflect upon contast to the entire Bible. You cannot take the Bible literally in every aspect. Many things concerning the Bible and interpretation are not cut and dry. To contrast your reference to James, Christ said works do not sanctify you, only faith. Faith produces works, yes, but the works themselves are meaningless as anyone on this rock can do "good things".

You actually have a pretty good perspective on many things Christian oriented. I'd recommend coming by Mars Hill Ballard campus sometime and checking it out. I went regularly before coming (back) to God and regardless of faith or belief, there's some interesting points to think on. Mark Driscoll has a way about him ;)

[ck_taft325is]

I'll just leave this here.

Comedians, while funny and usually right about a lot of things are probably not the best source of understanding when it comes to Theology. While you can poke fun, this doesn't mean you have any real ground to stand on.

Good stuff though. I laughed my ass off. Always been a fan of Penn and Teller. The whole big talker and short mute guy always makes me wonder though. On a side note, does anyone know if he's ACTUALLY mute or just acting it up?

[Farbin Kaiber]

Acting.

[ck_taft325is]

I knew it.

[ak-]

I don't really want to get in this, but for the devil issue part thing.. this is how I see it.

Think of him as Stalin or Sadam Hussein even.
Evil and what not, yet he still wants you to follow him and bring youself towards him; So you do, thinking he is the higher power... alright. But in reality he does not give a flying shit about you and ends up gasing you and your family for what ever reason he has.

That is how I see the devil and his wonderland.
Sure, go ahead and follow him.. Yes he will be happy, but not because you are following him, but because you are going against and disobeying God, who was the one who put him there in the first place. And that is the devil's orgasm, when he sees you disobeying God.
You are a literal "tool" or "puppet" if you follow him.
Next thing you know, bam, throw your useless self in the lava or whatever is down there.