Arrest illegals, now what a novel idea!

[freeride53]

arizoner.

[Gadea]

Nope its not, but its what we have, so change it or enforce are the 2 options. Enforcement is the correct option you have not given any real argument as why they should be given amnesty, other than its easier.

This government (or any other, for that matter) won´t give no amnesty per se. One thing everybody agrees, including both Reps and Dems, is that IF they reform immigration, there will be lots of limitations on who will benefit from it. Some of them would be have your taxes paid for the period residing in the US, ability to communicate in english, no troubles with the law obviously other than entering the country illegally or overstaying a visa (or something minor as a parking ticket), and they would pay a fine. Things like that. Makes sense to me.

Yup, you get hungry enough you will work all day for a hot meal let alone money to feed family. Or maybe its my traditional values that you work to take care of those in your family. Are Californians are so above the rest of us that they cant work for minimum wage to keep their bellies full, they should just continue to wait for the hand outs when there is work that could be done?????

I agree 100% on this one. I mean, that´s what brought maybe not all, but many people from south of the border in the first place. It´s hard to see it from our point of view, but if your own country won´t allow you to support your family (I´m not referring to not being able to afford an xbox, I´m talking extreme poverty here) you wouldn´t mind crossing a desert into a very different country without permits of any kind, etc. etc. if that´s what it takes to put bread on the table.

Yes many and I dare say most would continue to not pay any taxes drive with out insurance and what not. Would you change your behavior if you were just rewarded for that very behavior??????????? I was showing that not all of them legal or other wise are not violent felons as the other guy was implying I was doing, I was clarifying a point of some else that is trying to twist a point. There is a big difference in tax evasion and trespass vs Murder, rape and armed robbery. Nice try to twist my words up into some thing that was not said.

you´re looking at this in too a simple way. when I mentioned those violent crimes I know you didn´t mention, I was only exagerating your own already exagerated view. You can´t possibly assume these people will continue violating regulations left and right given the chance to adjust to the system. Might as well give them a speeding ticket before they start the car. The ones who don´t pay taxes, really should be ashamed of themselves, there´s no excuse for that. The ones driving uninsured I´m guessing it´s because they can´t get a DL. Of course, that´s no excuse either. No insurance?, catch the bus. If you don´t mind, I´d like to advise you not to be so daring at arriving to conclusions. G W Bush "dared" to invade Irak when the whole world said "don´t do it!!" based of the infamous assumption of WMDs and look at the mess it got us into.

It solves nothing but to make you and your liberal bleeding heart brethren, feel good about them selves that you helped some group of people that are less fortunate than you, all with some one else's money.

I don´t even know what to make of this statement. Private persons and entities can do with their money as they please, as long as they tell the IRS. So, apparently, you got the idea that somehow, some branches of the government (federal, state, local?) have included illegal immigrants in their budget??
yes, someone (all of us) pays the unpaid ER bills, jail time of felons, education for children and such. But, how much business is generated by (at least) 10 million people? how many jobs? How much money is collected in sales tax?
you´d be surprised at the comparison

Here is an Idea, since you feel so strongly, why dont you take some of YOUR hard earned money and walk around and find 2-3 random "undocumented workers" and sponsor them and pay for them to get their citizenship.

dude, you dissapointed me here, I thought you were smarter, but this only sounds ....hateful, if not ignorant on the subject. Under your beloved immigration law, you can´t sponsor 1, 2 or any number of people for any amount of money. You can have more money than Bill Gates and Bill Cosby combined and willing to give it away? it doesn´t matter, it doesn´t work that way. Only family relationships and job related skills count when it comes to sponsoring. Besides, to get your citizenship you need to have been a legal US resident for a period of years (5 I believe) among other requisites.



Don´t get me wrong, I´m not judging you. Nobody is better, or worse. We are all just different. At the very least, we all love E30s.



Prov. 27:1, 2

[mrsleeve]

I agree 100% on this one. I mean, that´s what brought maybe not all, but many people from south of the border in the first place. It´s hard to see it from our point of view, but if your own country won´t allow you to support your family (I´m not referring to not being able to afford an xbox, I´m talking extreme poverty here) you wouldn´t mind crossing a desert into a very different country without permits of any kind, etc. etc. if that´s what it takes to put bread on the table.

Like I say I fault no one for providing for them selves and family and trying to better them selves. This is why I support making the system that much more affordable and user friendly for those willing to go about it the right way. Untill then enforce the laws we have, and take care of our own or those willing to come here the right way 1st and foremost.

you´re looking at this in too a simple way. when I mentioned those violent crimes I know you didn´t mention, I was only exagerating your own already exagerated view. You can´t possibly assume these people will continue violating regulations left and right given the chance to adjust to the system. Might as well give them a speeding ticket before they start the car. The ones who don´t pay taxes, really should be ashamed of themselves, there´s no excuse for that. The ones driving uninsured I´m guessing it´s because they can´t get a DL. Of course, that´s no excuse either. No insurance?, catch the bus. If you don´t mind, I´d like to advise you not to be so daring at arriving to conclusions. G W Bush "dared" to invade Irak when the whole world said "don´t do it!!" based of the infamous assumption of WMDs and look at the mess it got us into.

Will stay away from the last part of this, but really do you think the people that are here now if we suddenly let them in as citizens and start taking their earnings you really think they wont go WTF and hide as much income as they can, seeing how its mostly cash in the 1st place?????? That and correct men if I am wrong here but dont immigrants not pay any taxes for the 1st 7 years they are here?????

I don´t even know what to make of this statement. Private persons and entities can do with their money as they please, as long as they tell the IRS. So, apparently, you got the idea that somehow, some branches of the government (federal, state, local?) have included illegal immigrants in their budget??

No this was not aimed so much at those that hire and use the labor pool (all though that needs to be delt with as well) but more at the massive amounts of low income families that will now be on the entitlement rolls if granted amnesty and there for cost all of us in the end even more than now. Hence my comment about the other peoples money (taxes and entitlements) to make them selves feel warm and fuzzy and good about them selves.

dude, you dissapointed me here, I thought you were smarter, but this only sounds ....hateful, if not ignorant on the subject. Under your beloved immigration law, you can´t sponsor 1, 2 or any number of people for any amount of money. You can have more money than Bill Gates and Bill Cosby combined and willing to give it away? it doesn´t matter, it doesn´t work that way. Only family relationships and job related skills count when it comes to sponsoring. Besides, to get your citizenship you need to have been a legal US resident for a period of years (5 I believe) among other requisites.

Not up to speed on requirements, it was not meant a serious course of action in the least. It was more tongue and cheek to get my point across to use your own money and time if you want to help get some one here legally, dont drag all of us into it and down with it. Not meant in a hate full way at all, Idealism only goes so far before the real world over rules, or at least thats how it used to work

[Gadea]

Like I say I fault no one for providing for them selves and family and trying to better them selves. This is why I support making the system that much more affordable and user friendly for those willing to go about it the right way. Untill then enforce the laws we have, and take care of our own or those willing to come here the right way 1st and foremost.

I agree.

Will stay away from the last part of this, but really do you think the people that are here now if we suddenly let them in as citizens and start taking their earnings you really think they wont go WTF and hide as much income as they can, seeing how its mostly cash in the 1st place?????? That and correct men if I am wrong here but dont immigrants not pay any taxes for the 1st 7 years they are here?????

I truly believe most of them would realize the opportunity they´re being given and do the right thing. About the "not paying taxes for the 1st 7 years" thing, no, I don´t know where you got that from. Looks like someone misinformed you. In the event someone goes about getting paid only in cash for 7 yrs (somewhat unlikely) he/she is supposed and expected to declare that income to the IRS. If they don´t, well, we all know it´s wrong and whoever does it should be ready to face the consequences. Just like anybody else. Like I mentioned before, in the event congress passes an immigration reform, there´s wide consensus about that issue. Having your income tax filed (not sure how many years back they were considering, I´m guessing all of them?) and all and any money owed paid will be one of the most (if not THE most) important requirement.

I´m really glad that we can exchange different views without being aggresive or insulting to the other person:D

[joshh]

What happens when you lose a bunch of cheap labor? There is a shortage of labor and wages are forced up. Combine that with the fact that no one wants to do those jobs, and you're going to see labor prices go way up. If the recently-evicted-immigrants jobs can't be filled quickly, there will be a disruption in supply, raising prices. What does that all translate to? Higher prices for the end consumer.

You can't throw 20 million people out of a country and expect things to just keep running smoothly. Hell, you can't even logistically throw 20 million people out of a country. Better to just make them citizens, make them legal. Get them paying taxes, buying houses, make them accountable to the courts, etc.

Couple things you didn't think about.
Many illegals get less than minimum wage anyways. So prices would go up either way you slice it.
Many illegals are taking decent paying jobs. In So Cal many illegals work for less than what we were charging yet they were still making $14.00hr much of the time.

And that illegals were the main reason many kids these days don't need/want to do those lower end jobs.

Laws should be enforced. What about all the immigants that came here legaly? Sorry you worked your ass off for doing the right thing but we're goinbg to give 12-20million others citizenship.
It lazy to refuse to do the right thing.

[Gadea]

good point, Josh

[StereoInstaller1]

We should mix this and the sex offenders thread...

"Illegal aliens?" "I say kill 'em all!"

"chop their balls off and send them back to where they came from, but with a pink star tattooed on their forehead"

[mar1t1me]

So much for the idea that illegals don't contribute to the economy.

All those businesses pay taxes in many forms, including sales tax.

I'm not defending illegals, because they're, well, illegal. They should not be here. But the idea that they are somehow only leeches is clearly wrong. Their impact has been hard to measure, perhaps until now. This will be interesting....

[joshh]

So much for the idea that illegals don't contribute to the economy.

All those businesses pay taxes in many forms, including sales tax.

I'm not defending illegals, because they're, well, illegal. They should not be here. But the idea that they are somehow only leeches is clearly wrong. Their impact has been hard to measure, perhaps until now. This will be interesting....

There's no dobt some of them do pay taxes. But most of them don't.
Let's not forget that many illegals steal Americans SS#'s so they can vote, get jobs, file for Welfare and collect unemployment.

[Kansas]

Enforcement is the correct option you have not given any real argument as why they should be given amnesty, other than its easier.

You have said yourself that enforcement is not possible. Your own "idealism" is clouding your judgement. I don't really give a damn about people improving their lives or not, I'm only interested in how to best solve the problem of having millions of undocumented people here. Give them amnesty, deport any actual criminals we find and fix our immigration system so you don't need a lawyer just to get a work visa.

Yup, you get hungry enough you will work all day for a hot meal let alone money to feed family.

That's true. But are you going to (can you afford to) move hundred of miles away for temporary work? You're ignoring the reality that most people would rather stick it out and look for a local job than split up their family over the principle that they don't want to take a "handout".

Would you change your behavior if you were just rewarded for that very behavior?

No, I would change my behavior if I was held liable for it. Which is exactly what amnesty would do. Citizenship is not just perks, it includes responsibilities as well.

Nice try to twist my words up into some thing that was not said.

Thanks. You claimed that illegal immigrants would be incurable criminals whether they were citizens or not. Not violent, mass murdering psychopaths; just criminals. That's bullshit.

It solves nothing but to make you and your liberal bleeding heart brethren, feel good about them selves that you helped some group of people that are less fortunate than you, all with some one else's money.

My bleeding liberal heart? Fuck, you're ignorant enough to think that would actually be an insult, whether or not it's true. Pretty pathetic that you're still reaching for personal attacks.

Many illegals get less than minimum wage anyways. So prices would go up either way you slice it.

True. And they are necessary labor who, like you say, work for less than what we would charge. I think it's a small price to pay to have them documented.

Many illegals are taking decent paying jobs. In So Cal many illegals work for less than what we were charging yet they were still making $14.00hr much of the time.

So Cal ain't cheap, even if you are here illegally.

And that illegals were the main reason many kids these days don't need/want to do those lower end jobs.

"Kids" can't work. And anything close to manual labor is going to require employees to be over 18 for insurance purposes.

Laws should be enforced.

That is not a universal rule, by anyone's standard.

What about all the immigants that came here legaly? Sorry you worked your ass off for doing the right thing but we're goinbg to give 12-20million others citizenship.

Separate issue as far as I'm concerned. You might as well use the same argument against reforming immigration laws. If you feel really bad about it, make illegals pay a fine before they become legal.

[mrsleeve]

You have said yourself that enforcement is not possible. Your own "idealism" is clouding your judgement. I don't really give a damn about people improving their lives or not, I'm only interested in how to best solve the problem of having millions of undocumented people here. Give them amnesty, deport any actual criminals we find and fix our immigration system so you don't need a lawyer just to get a work visa.

When they are found deport them, THATS ENFORCEMENT and thats how it needs to be done, Just like federal laws say it should be, and thats what AZ is doing. How is that idealistic or clouded judgment.

Reform the system yes 100% make it more affordable and user friendly

That's true. But are you going to (can you afford to) move hundred of miles away for temporary work? You're ignoring the reality that most people would rather stick it out and look for a local job than split up their family over the principle that they don't want to take a "handout"

I spend 8-11 months a year 2300 miles from my home and family to earn a living all my work is temporary, a 100mi is nothing I would be driving that shit every day. I do what I have to do, do I like it NO but I do it. My FIL is working in IA 1500 miles form home and has been there for 14 months to make his obligations and doing what he has to. I have friends and family scattered all over the country taking what ever they can for work, doing what they have to till something opens up at home. People have wandered this country in search of the means to support the family and them selves since before the birth of this nation, why should this generation be any different?????.

No, I would change my behavior if I was held liable for it. Which is exactly what amnesty would do. Citizenship is not just perks, it includes responsibilities as well.

Yes your most certainly right, but there in lies the rub of this argument. Did you get a cookie or a new Play station game as a kid when you catch the living room carpet on fire or when you get suspended from school for 3 days????? I know I didn't I got an ass kicking and privileges taken away for breaking the rules.

The same thing goes for breaking the law, you dont get rewarded with citizenship for it. Again with this simple concept that you cant seem to grasp.

Thanks. You claimed that illegal immigrants would be incurable criminals whether they were citizens or not. Not violent, mass murdering psychopaths; just criminals. That's bullshit.

Again putting words in my mouth, I never said that. I said they are in violation of the laws by being here (AKA Criminals when you break the law thats kinda what you are) and there for should be held accountable for that not rewarded for it. Incurable no where I have I made such a claim.

Some do have a violent criminal past on both sides of the boarder and really should not be here at all.

My bleeding liberal heart? Fuck, you're ignorant enough to think that would actually be an insult, whether or not it's true. Pretty pathetic that you're still reaching for personal attacks.

Wow must have hit a nerve, Just calling it as I see it is not a insult, and really not going into any personal attacks here. As far as I can see you are getting off very easy as noob and only posting in this section. I am being civil.

Really h0lmes is this you??????

True. And they are necessary labor who, like you say, work for less than what we would charge. I think it's a small price to pay to have them documented.

Which we have a over abundance of LEGAL citizens out of work that can do them as well, just need a little motivation. Hunger and being a bit chilly works good for that and has for 1000's of years.

So Cal ain't cheap, even if you are here illegally.

WHOLE Different Thread there

"Kids" can't work. And anything close to manual labor is going to require employees to be over 18 for insurance purposes.

That is not a universal rule, by anyone's standard.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kinda countered your own previous argument with this one didnt ya

[Schnitzer318is]

Pretty sure most illegal immigrants don't make enough money to contribute a whole lot(if any) in taxes.

Illegal immigrants pay 80% of the taxes of the average legal citizen.

[Streichholzschächtelchen]

Illegal immigrants pay 80% of the taxes of the average legal citizen.

But pay 100% of their health care, changed lots of shit to Spanish and give tons of financial aid to the fuckers. I'm part Mexican and that side of my family came here legally, if we can they can.

[scabzzzz]

I say we slave the Mexicans out and pay them NOTHING.

[LBJefferies]

I'm wondering, is racism against Mexicans pretty common in the border states? If it is, I could see this being a problem but if it's not, then people who are here legally won't have anything to worry about.