Israel just doesn't get it...

[ck_taft325is]

I believe politics should be based on law and schools based on science. I dont think the bible has any place in public funded schools. I do not think Atheism is a belief system, it simply means "with out god" not against, but with out. I suggest not teaching without god vs with god, teach something usefull!

I do not look at my view points as arrogant, nor do I use it as a crutch, I see it as standing on my own, where God may me helping others to stand. If you need help there is no shame in getting help, wether it be from god or from social services, I dont care, just get the help you need to make you a functional part of society.

Good point. I've never looked at it that way, AND I fully 100% agree with that.

Came across as such and really, I didn't aim to offend with that statement.

[bimmer_E30]

this thread sucks, and is full of shit.

[ck_taft325is]

OH and where the fuck did I blame God for anything?

You are a presumptive, welfare accepting little twat aren't you?

What does any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? No hostility at all.

To state that you're ignorant or stupid because you have faith while claiming to be Athiest (which is a standpoint of Faith in No God) is ironic and oh wait for it, ignorant.

If you really have an issue with me getting gang beat to near death and recieving emergency medical treatment to save my life at the age of 17, that says a lot more about you than me.

[Farbin Kaiber]

ARGH. No one is quoting and arguing with me. I'm out of here.

[kronus]

ARGH. No one is quoting and arguing with me. I'm out of here.

me neither :(

[Farbin Kaiber]

me neither :(

I usually take that as a sign that I'm right.

[z31maniac]

What does any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? No hostility at all.

To state that you're ignorant or stupid because you have faith while claiming to be Athiest (which is a standpoint of Faith in No God) is ironic and oh wait for it, ignorant.

If you really have an issue with me getting gang beat to near death and recieving emergency medical treatment to save my life at the age of 17, that says a lot more about you than me.

Hostility comes from being called ignorant and having words put in my mouth, if you care to stop that, we can go on with a civil discussion.

To me it's not Faith that there is no God. It's scientific fact. He can't be proven to exist, so until EMPERICAL EVIDENCE constitutes the existence of God, he does not exist.

That is not having "faith" or "belief" in God not existing, that is knowing that God does not exist.

Not talking about Healthcare here sweetheart, talking about your lack of Federal Income tax liability, but we'll drop that. I just wanted to get that jab in on you.

[ACMF74]

I usually take that as a sign that I'm right.

or terribly off/wrong :)

[dirtysix]

ARGH. No one is quoting and arguing with me. I'm out of here.

I'll bite!
You think too much ha!
But here is a question for you and ck-taft.
Why must I, or anyone, take a position on faith or religion? Why has this question become so very important?

[briansjacobs]

Hostility comes from being called ignorant and having words put in my mouth, if you care to stop that, we can go on with a civil discussion.

To me it's not Faith that there is no God. It's scientific fact. He can't be proven to exist, so until EMPERICAL EVIDENCE constitutes the existence of God, he does not exist.

That is not having "faith" or "belief" in God not existing, that is knowing that God does not exist.

Not talking about Healthcare here sweetheart, talking about your lack of Federal Income tax liability, but we'll drop that. I just wanted to get that jab in on you.

As anthiest I say I do not have the data back up the belief in the theory of a god or inteligent designer, to say you know for a fact is awfully bold and arrogant. Remember at one time there was not proof that the world was round, the theory made sense and was believable, but no proof. I would suggest a little more humilty patience with one another and their beliefs or lack there of would do everyone a bit good.

[E30Kaiser]

As anthiest I say I do not have the data back up the belief in the theory of a god or inteligent designer, to say you know for a fact is awfully bold and arrogant. Remember at one time there was not proof that the world was round, the theory made sense and was believable, but no proof. I would suggest a little more humilty patience with one another and their beliefs or lack there of would do everyone a bit good.

This is a fallacy perpetuated by elementary school teachers, and Washington Irving. For the past 3000 years educated men have believed the Earth is round.

But I completely agree with your point, also science isn't the end all be all of debate, just look at philosophy, where science has very little to do with anything, but no one talks shit about it, beyond the fact that it is pointless.

[z31maniac]

As anthiest I say I do not have the data back up the belief in the theory of a god or inteligent designer, to say you know for a fact is awfully bold and arrogant. Remember at one time there was not proof that the world was round, the theory made sense and was believable, but no proof. I would suggest a little more humilty patience with one another and their beliefs or lack there of would do everyone a bit good.

I don't believe my statement was made with hubris, just stating why I think they way I do.

You simply stated that you agree with me using different wording. Semantical games are boring, let's stay on point.

Even though we've thoroughly derailed this thread!

This is a fallacy perpetuated by elementary school teachers, and Washington Irving. For the past 3000 years educated men have believed the Earth is round.

But I completely agree with your point, also science isn't the end all be all of debate, just look at philosophy, where science has very little to do with anything, but no one talks shit about it, beyond the fact that it is pointless.

I have a minor in Philosophy, so I'm not sure what you are driving at. To say there is no science in Philosophy seems a bit misguided. Philosophy very much uses "scientific principles" when trying to espouse a new point of view, or "-ism."

[briansjacobs]

But I completely agree with your point, also science isn't the end all be all of debate, just look at philosophy, where science has very little to do with anything, but no one talks shit about it, beyond the fact that it is pointless.

philosophy is good for provoking thought, but that is all it is, thought and ideas. Science is the proof (or attempt to prove) of the philosophy.

Philosophy with out science has no place in life outside of a school courtyard trying to talk to a girl out of her virginity. (wow that sounds creepy coming from a guy near 40)

[E30Kaiser]

I have a minor in Philosophy, so I'm not sure what you are driving at. To say there is no science in Philosophy seems a bit misguided. Philosophy very much uses "scientific principles" when trying to espouse a new point of view, or "-ism."

My point is that while it does use the "scientific principles", as long as you have a sound, logical argument you can put forth a valid statement and you don't need scientific evidence. Scientific laws do not necessarily equal good arguments, while you might argue that gravity is what causes an apple to fall from a tree, if you are merely resting on the scientific laws put forth by Newton, you would most likely be made to look stupid. On the flip side no one takes Skeptics seriously, as they just shoot down everything with no regard to pragmatism.

I think one should come more with the viewpoint of philosophy than science when talking about faith and beliefs, though science should not be ignored, as I said, it is not the end all be all of the argument.

EDIT for Brian's post: Religion itself is mostly just thoughts and ideas, and like philosophy is something that helps you clarify and order your thoughts and morals. I am a Christian, but I don't even know if there is a heaven or hell so I don't buy into "Christian" morals because I feel like otherwise I am going to hell, I do it because otherwise I am letting down myself, my community, and my faith before someone pulls the "I don't need the threat of hell to be a good person!" argument that is made every 5 seconds.

[Aptyp]

Hostility comes from being called ignorant and having words put in my mouth, if you care to stop that, we can go on with a civil discussion.

To me it's not Faith that there is no God. It's scientific fact. He can't be proven to exist, so until EMPERICAL EVIDENCE constitutes the existence of God, he does not exist.

That is not having "faith" or "belief" in God not existing, that is knowing that God does not exist.

Not talking about Healthcare here sweetheart, talking about your lack of Federal Income tax liability, but we'll drop that. I just wanted to get that jab in on you.

Very nice and dandy, but what you said can be posed the opposite way as well. As there's no prove of existence of no god. That's the whole point that's still driving science to answer questions of our origin.

I have a minor in Philosophy, so I'm not sure what you are driving at. To say there is no science in Philosophy seems a bit misguided. Philosophy very much uses "scientific principles" when trying to espouse a new point of view, or "-ism."

I know right, I love biologism, chemistrism, and the hardest of all physicism.