Sales of the GM Volt.

[rwh11385]

Im glad Tesla at least knows how to make electric cars. And price them. 150-300mi range on a charge for a sarting price of around 45k? Seems like a better deal.

I think you mean 160 miles (Tesla's #) for $57400 base model (and only the performance and largest storage models are in production, no base low-capacity yet).

It's a sweet car and love seeing more EVs, especially spirited / inspired ones and having them come down in price. A friend of mine has been working on it for the past couple years. And having these instead of just the Leaf or MiEV helps a lot.

But, keep in mind the Roadster was $109K... so $39,145 MSRP ($31,465 after tax credit) for the first generation seems more reasonable. Who knows what pricing structures they'll create with Gen II, along with the Cadillac ELR as a premium US Volt, and hopefully a milder option for the Cruze.

[Wschnitz]

I just think the major companies made the evs for the image and for government approval etc. if they really tried they would all be up near Tesla.

And hopefully they drop the outrageous prices on ultimate shit cars, the starting price on the volts, newer prius, and leaf were bullshit, im wlmost certain most people would use that money towards a TDI or a civic instead. With the money they were asking you could buy a used fitted 320d and roll in class and get mpgs....

[u3b3rg33k]

you can buy a used 320d?!? where? do want.

[rwh11385]

I just think the major companies made the evs for the image and for government approval etc. if they really tried they would all be up near Tesla.

And hopefully they drop the outrageous prices on ultimate shit cars, the starting price on the volts, newer prius, and leaf were bullshit, im wlmost certain most people would use that money towards a TDI or a civic instead. With the money they were asking you could buy a used fitted 320d and roll in class and get mpgs....

That's kind of bold for you to say... There's a big difference between a small private company with a wealthy backer who wants something, and large corporations with multiple stakeholders to satisfy. Many car lines vying for investment and many technologies to develop, versus a single focus. And big bloated bureaucratic companies take longer, plus Tesla is working people hard, 60+ hour weeks. It'll take time for companies to familiarize themselves and innovate, but there's already some cool cars - ones they are bringing to the market and not just publicity pieces.

But are you hating on the Active E? Will the i8 be good enough for you? (integration of existing product into an EV versus long-term and further-reaching technological application)



For a point of comparison, I calculated the payback period for a Cavalier with the Volt's battery capacity back in 1999...

I inflated numbers to current 2012 dollar values:
Cavalier base MSRP ($11,916) = $16,413 in today's dollars
$1600/kwh lithium ion * 16kwh ($25,600) = $35,262
Combined = $51,675 (ignoring motor cost, planetary gearing, controls, etc. - just a Cavalier and the batteries magically work)

Gas at the beginning of 1999 (~$0.95) = $1.31 [2012 US $]
Electricity in 1999 (~$0.066/kwh) = $0.091

Charging up 10.7 kwh of usable battery capacity everyday = $355
15,000 miles / 24 combined mpg (today's mpg standards) = 625 gallons/year
625 * $1.31 = $818.75 per year on gas
Cavalier Series Hybrid saves $463.70 per year

($51,675-$16,413) / $463.70 = 76 years

Much better economics than just over a decade ago... and only will improve while battery prices drop and gasoline ticks up over time.

[Wiglaf]

that's not a fair comparison. The cavalier is, and always was, a polished turd. What would you compare the Volt to if it had a typical drivetrain? At least a Fusion.

I saw someone try that miles until payoff stunt comparing the Tesla Model S to a hyundai. Really?? When that hyundai puts out 400ft-lbs of instant torque to the rear wheels then we can talk. The cheapest thing that ballpark is a V8 mustang, and honestly I'd be surprised if the mustang could keep up. There is NO competition when it comes to INSTANT torque. And my sportbike might as well be a dinosaur if you want to compare throttle response to an electric.

These people are missing the point entirely. It's not political. It's better power delivery with less moving parts. How much would you pay for a nice flat torque curve that starts at 0 rpms?? Looks at this complicated shit BMW and Audi puts out lately, they still can't nail it.

[rwh11385]

that's not a fair comparison. The cavalier is, and always was, a polished turd. What would you compare the Volt to if it had a typical drivetrain? At least a Fusion.

I saw someone try that miles until payoff stunt comparing the Tesla Model S to a hyundai. Really?? When that hyundai puts out 400ft-lbs of instant torque to the rear wheels then we can talk. The cheapest thing that ballpark is a V8 mustang, and honestly I'd be surprised if the mustang could keep up. There is NO competition when it comes to INSTANT torque. And my sportbike might as well be a dinosaur if you want to compare throttle response to an electric.

These people are missing the point entirely. It's not political. It's better power delivery with less moving parts. How much would you pay for a nice flat torque curve that starts at 0 rpms?? Looks at this complicated shit BMW and Audi puts out lately, they still can't nail it.

Ha, that's a pretty telling response. I used the Cavalier because the Cruze was its eventual replacement and that's the platform the Volt is built upon. Besides the obvious look back at the EV1 in the same reflective time period, I thought it was appropriate to show how far the economics has changed. But also obviously so has GM's compact quality. Speaking of the Fusion, its Energi pricing and reception should also be very interesting.

The real purpose is that people complain about the payback period, but fail to see that gas is nearing triple what it was and batteries have come down to a fourth. That's a huge swing in economics. All this criticism of the price of batteries will fall away when they get chopped again. No doubt there are other great benefits of electric motors. It's good to see Volt advertising 273 ft-lbs at zero RPM, App connectivity, safety, etc. You can certainly feel its scoot.

Someone once asked me if the electric carts we race could keep up with the gas ones (same HP engine vs. motor), and the EVs are definitely quicker to accelerate and a more exciting race. (Quiet locomotion = just tires screeching)

Fastest Gas Cart on the track = 25.784 (and way ahead of anyone else, most race best laps of mid 26s, low 27)
Fastest EV Cart on the track = 25.94 (even with racks of batteries vs. a lighter gas tank)

[Fusion]

Ok, great, the payback has fallen to 26 years.
You do know what the greatest enemy of any highly electrical device is, right?

[rwh11385]

Ok, great, the payback has fallen to 26 years.
You do know what the greatest enemy of any highly electrical device is, right?

Big Oil?

[Fusion]

Time.
Time in relation to outdatedness.
Time in relation to corrosion, degradation etc.

[rwh11385]

Time.
Time in relation to outdatedness.
Time in relation to corrosion, degradation etc.

Hmmm. Because mechanical systems don't corrode or fatigue, nor do they ever become dated by improvements in design or technology??

[Wiglaf]

Time.
Time in relation to outdatedness.
Time in relation to corrosion, degradation etc.

This is actually my biggest argument in favor of electric.
Literally 1/30th or less of the moving parts.
Not to mention the Volt and them are doing it wrong. Tesla is on the right track: no transmission.

[Q5Quint]

Just found this thread so apologies for not reading through all 42 pages yet~

A buddy of mine just bought a volt to split with his ma-dukes for in-town ev trips to work and longer trips on the highway. I think they swap who gets it each week. He already has a prius so is obviously already biased about the electric car thing- I am hoping for a test drive and speaking with him about his experiences coming up.

I would just do the mad scientist thing and build my own but that's me.

http://www.evalbum.com/

[rwh11385]

This is actually my biggest argument in favor of electric.
Literally 1/30th or less of the moving parts.
Not to mention the Volt and them are doing it wrong. Tesla is on the right track: no transmission.

Yeah, we know you think halfies are dumb, but I think they're our necessary bridge to get between pure petrol to eventually higher adoption of pure EV. (Look at Volt vs. Leaf sales now) The redundancy factor helps cautious people and new tech, even if there is more potential failure points. Although when kwh/kg hits a point when a decent weight pack of batteries gives you 500 miles, fewer people will care or worry about range at all. (And EVs will be much more proven and tested, tried and true so mechanical redundancy less crucial).

But compared to basically: batteries, wires, controller, and motor...

Petroleum vehicles have:
Gas tubes that can corrode and leak
Pumps that fail / break / seize
More fuel lines that break from vibration / heat
Injectors that clog
Filters that clog
Intake tubes that get cracked
Spark plugs that get clogged
Valves that get dirty from combustion
Intake manifold that gets dirty
Exhaust manifold that can crack under thermal and mechanical stress
Cylinder head that can crack under thermal and mechanical stress
Block that can get a hole in it from extreme stress
Piston that can get a hole blown in it on occasion
Piston rings fail
Oil can leak from cracked seals and spill out, and lack of lubrication ruin the engine
Head gasket wears and fails
Timing belt cracks over time and ruins engines like with M20s
Water pump fails over time
Thermostat fails over time
Radiator hoses crack over time
Radiator cracks / clogs over time
Transmission fails over time as fluid gets dirty or not strong enough (heat treat potentially done wrong)
Clutch wears out over time
Guide / CSB / Mounts wear out over time
Driveshaft axles get fudged up over time
Exhaust rust out (corrosion) over time
[Just a quick list in one sitting]

Plus, they require a LOT of sensors that are susceptible to the same dangers of any other electrical component you might judge an EV for. If many of the important sensor break, crack, or wires disconnect, your car doesn't run. And modern cars also have electronic controls systems. And an alternator and a battery and a starter motor.


So comparably, a BEV which uses batteries, wires, control system, and motor or two (and maybe regen brakes)... I'd trust much more. The electric carts are MUCH easier to diagnose than our gas ones. So much to go wrong on the latter.

The Volt does combine both, but its ICE isn't really used that much. Nearly 2/3rds of ALL Volt mileage has been done under EV power (On-Star allows real-time tracking, plus their phone app allows for overview of your own car... but that's not advanced tech at all, every car has that right?) and certainly some don't use gas at all really, while some lean the other way. But ignorant fearing of electric vehicles is stupid if you don't even consider how many electric components a gasoline vehicle requires and how many mechanical components are vulnerable to failure over time. Combustion is a crazy beast to handle.


And people upgrade their cars with newer engines all the time now - M50, S50/52, S54, M62, etc. And they have to worry about mounts, exhaust clearing, brake booster clearing, transmission fitting up, driveshaft, and differential handling it. Who says you can't update the batteries when technology increases energy density (keeping voltage of batteries the same), or upgrade the motor? Close-minded, one-sided thinking! If anything, electric vehicles should be must easier to not have them be outdated.

[Wiglaf]

yup!

well i understand that the batts aren't there yet. but i already made the case for having gas as purely an on-board generator. it could be an extremely simple and efficient engine and get the job done since you wouldn't have to worry about response, large rev range, etc. Also shouldn't need to be any larger than 600~1000cc.

[Fusion]

An electro with a generator is nothing new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect'road

phone app allows for overview of your own car... but that's not advanced tech at all, every car has that right?

You kidding? I have a 94 Mercedes with OBDII, a wifi ODB port and an iphone app that has tons of real-time data (not all possible data due to the car's age). E30's had built-in BC's for milage, consumption etc. decades ago.

And while we're arguing here, that friend of mine that has a 10yo BEV is installing a new motor because the original one suddenly died (reasons unknown yet).