Sales of the GM Volt.

[rwh11385]

Nothing is "worthless" not even the RC car. But it falls to the ranks of Saturn and other failed auto lines. In a few years when you cant purchase parts for your now bankrupt Pontiac, it will become almost worthless and worth more in parts or scrap.


And if you can not see the connection between GE and the Gov you are the definition of the word Gullible! GE has been doing the dirty work (in the private sector) for the GOV and the GOV rewards heavily for its work!

Such as no bid contracts, tax breaks, and incentives

Conflict of interests at its best!

So my comparison to Pontiac was on the same lines? Who says you won't be able to buy parts? Service parts are very profitable. You are just making more assumptions, per usual.

I think you are confusing which way the relationship goes there... GE lobbies government. Not the other way around.

I don't think GE cares as much about the Volt as it does to increase adoption of electric vehicles, since it makes chargers for them. Hybrids that aren't plugins are not that worthwhile to them. And last year, Volt was the only name in the game for PHEV.

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/Dispatcher?REQUEST=PRODUCTS&famid=9404

Can GE not dictate what its own employees have as a perk? You want to have your opini on control what they offer?!?

Cool, rwh filmed herself for us



What makes you such an Obamamobile hugger? Do you have failed GM stock and hope your little forum defense will boost stock value?

Aw, so cute you lost at any attempt at an actual argument so now just calling me a girl. . . . Very brilliant.

And laughable you calling it Obamamobile, since it was thought up by Bob Lutz and had the concept before Obama was in office. But right wing nut jobs love to try to claim ridiculous things based on ignorance.

Lutz also came up with some marketing and led two car developments for a little ole car brand centered in Munich. How'd that work out?

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=281063

[Fusion]

Batman didn't design the Batmobile.

You failed to answer my question though.
Even the marketing campaign expects buyers to be complete idiots. You've done the math before, how long will it take Ms. Voltgina to actually save up for a trip to Hawaii?

[gwb72tii]

nope, she's just smarter than all of us
just ask her

[rwh11385]

Batman didn't design the Batmobile.

You failed to answer my question though.
Even the marketing campaign expects buyers to be complete idiots. You've done the math before, how long will it take Ms. Voltgina to actually save up for a trip to Hawaii?

Wow. Are people like you and vedubin really dragging this discussion to such moronic levels. The Batmobile was designed for Batman. Bush was President when the idea came about, and Bush was the one who made the federal tax credits happen.

You had an actual question? I think this entire thread explains that I think PHEVs are a great option and technological progress towards more efficient and more sustainable transportation. The Volt was the first and so far the best. I also like the Jaguar, Infiniti, and Lotus ones, but they are not out yet. I see the Volt as GM's smart move to be an early innovator and show that they can be ahead of the trend instead of decades behind it for once, and legitimize all their Eco models, since they were known for low fuel economy and dated tech for many years. I think Lutz has awesome business sense and a car guy 'who gets it'. You against it are close-minded and look for any excuse to hate something, logical or not.

nope, she's just smarter than all of us
just ask her

Aw, so cute you lost at any attempt at an actual argument so now just calling me a girl. . . . Very brilliant.

[Fusion]

Engineers, I am disappoint

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_XP-883

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect%27road

Funny thing is the Elect'road had a higher bat range and cost less than the Volt (even if you considered inflation etc.). Batteries had less life, but replacement cost pretty much the same as now. This is 10 years ago.
If you consider the rate of advancement in other tech fields and their rapid price drops, the PH/EV field is a drunk snail.
Though technological advances could actually be a major negative because if your car outdated as fast as your laptop, it could never pay off, unless the dealer price was lower than normal cars, especially if you factor in the huge drop in value.

[rwh11385]

Engineers, I am disappoint

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_XP-883

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect%27road

Funny thing is the Elect'road had a higher bat range and cost less than the Volt (even if you considered inflation etc.). Batteries had less life, but replacement cost pretty much the same as now. This is 10 years ago.
If you consider the rate of advancement in other tech fields and their rapid price drops, the PH/EV field is a drunk snail.
Though technological advances could actually be a major negative because if your car outdated as fast as your laptop, it could never pay off, unless the dealer price was lower than normal cars, especially if you factor in the huge drop in value.

Fine, let's be more specific, the Volt is the first production plug-in series-hybrid car.

While it had a form of battery, they were not charged from external sources so it was not a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle or PHEV.

What's funny is you can't read:

The Elect'Road had a 150 km (93 mi) range using a nickel-cadmium battery pack and a liquid-cooled gasoline "range-extender" engine.

Although the Elect'road had a range extender it is effectively the very first plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV). In hybrid terms it operates in a blended mode, using engine and battery power simultaneously

93 miles vs. 375 miles... not really close.

XP-883 was a concept. There's been a lot of concepts over the years that have done a lot of things. Making a concept for a show is one thing and engineering/testing and ramping up for actual production and use is another.


And the #1 reason they weren't developed until now was economics. As mentioned previously, super cheap gas spoiled Americans so we never really cared about it.

Also, hilarious NOW you call PHEVs technological advances, but strongly denied it before.... ?

[Fusion]

93 miles vs. 375 miles... not really close

Someone in this thread argued, that the Volt is aimed at low-milage daily driving and low range isn't an issue.
Wait, wasn't that rwh?

And the #1 reason they weren't developed until now was economics. As mentioned previously, super cheap gas spoiled Americans so we never really cared about it.

So the ideal situation to start development was when the manufacturer almost went bankrupt and got a publically funded bailout that requires more and more public funding just to falsely boast sales numbers? Are you seriously naive enough to think that GM would've undergone R&D without all that free dough?

Also, hilarious NOW you call PHEVs technological advances, but strongly denied it before.... ?

You accuse me of not reading, while you're a very incapable reader yourself.

Though technological advances could actually be a major negative because (if they existed, and with such speeds as in other tech fields) if your car outdated as fast as your laptop, it could never pay off, unless the dealer price was lower than normal cars, especially if you factor in the huge drop in value.

Those three linked cars are basically the same idea as the Volt. Of course they're not exactly the same and the few extras the Volt has does not ensure its success. If you look at how far we've come in 100+ years in this field, it is seriously very disappointing. Compare that to aerotech, computers, or just stupid digital cameras and light bulbs. Tesla foresaw free electric cars within mere decades of his idea. Most of his ideas got developed and widely available within a couple years, but only the profitable ones.
The reason for that is not our stupidity or lazyness, its the sad fact that it isn't economically profitable for the public to widely have a (really) low cost means of transportation that would have all the pro's that g/d cars have and maybe some benefits (aside from theoretically minimal operational costs).

You can post all the monthly sales numbers you want, but they are and will be nothing but a sad reminder of all the public money gone down the shithole and more going down still. You should also note that until huge PHEV options are somehow made for trucks and maybe even a sci-fi electro container ship or airplane (I know helicopters are already developed), this little project leads to nothing but a few hypocrits buying a treehugger image and a couple rare cases, in which the owner may actually save some change during his abnormally long ownership.

[rwh11385]

Someone in this thread argued, that the Volt is aimed at low-milage daily driving and low range isn't an issue.
Wait, wasn't that rwh?

You were the one that boasted it was funny that the van had better battery range than the Volt, but failed to read that it was talking about combined range. There's no mention of its battery-only range, particularly because it didn't operate on battery-only...

Now, for the majority of Americans, they only commute 30 miles a day, so the EV-only range of the Volt works for them. But that fact doesn't mean your "funny point" was anything but inaccurate.

So the ideal situation to start development was when the manufacturer almost went bankrupt and got a publically funded bailout that requires more and more public funding just to falsely boast sales numbers? Are you seriously naive enough to think that GM would've undergone R&D without all that free dough?

I never said GM's history was ideal, making shit product for decades and have management protect bad processes wasn't ideal. But that doesn't mean they should keep doing what they were doing. (Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity) And your timeline is a little fudged.

The Chevrolet Volt concept car debuted at the January 2007 North American International Auto Show, becoming the first-ever series plug-in hybrid concept car shown by a major car manufacturer.

Then General Motors' Vice Chairman Robert Lutz said the two-seat sports car being developed by Tesla Motors, the Roadster, and the rapid advancement of lithium-ion battery technology inspired him to push the carmaker to develop the Volt after the 2006 Detroit Auto Show.

The production design model officially unveiled on September 16, 2008, as part of General Motors centennial celebration at the Wintergarden headquarters in Detroit.

GM filed for bankruptcy on June 1, 2009.

I know it must be more challenging to look at the truth instead of taking the word of poorly researched right-wing media... but development started in 2006 and had a production car in 2008. If you heard anything about the US economic circumstances while doing whatever you do in the Czech Republic, then you'd know that the shit hit the fan until after the production Volt was revealed.

Since the car was made and done before bankruptcy, or even the financial crisis that was the hay that broke the big camel's back... I'd say you are very inaccurate in your perception that bailout money funded the R&D of the Volt.

You accuse me of not reading, while you're a very incapable reader yourself.

Those three linked cars are basically the same idea as the Volt. Of course they're not the same and the few extras the Volt has does not ensure its success. If you look at how far we've come in 100+ years in this field, it is seriously very disappointing. Compare that to aerotech, computers, or just stupid digital cameras and light bulbs. Tesla foresaw free electric cars within mere decades of his idea. Most of his ideas got developed and widely available within a couple years, but only the profitable ones.
The reason for that is not our stupidity or lazyness, its the sad fact that it isn't economically profitable for the public to widely have a (really) low cost means of transportation that would have all the pro's that g/d cars have and maybe some benefits (aside from minimal operational costs).

You can post all the monthly sales numbers you want, but they are and will be nothing but a sad reminder of all the public money gone down the shithole and more going down still. You should also note that until huge PHEV options are somehow made for trucks and maybe even a sci-fi electro container ship, this little project leads to nothing but a few hypocrits buying a treehugger image and a couple rare cases, in which the owner way actually save some change during his abnormally long ownership.

I'm sorry you perceive those three cars as effectively the same as the Volt. It must be all the experience that cutting vinyl has given you to understand engineering cars? The technological advances to produce a vehicle that can drive for the most part without any gasoline while still have an onboard generator range-extender on board was much too long in the making, but up until now (and even debated by some like Romney - not yet) there wasn't the economics at hand for it. People don't generally invest in technology that won't bring value to people, although realization of the potential is lost on many at the start. Planes and personal computers were at times things that conventional thinkers assumed would go nowhere, and that they were merely elements of fancy. But along the way, they've evolved into important parts of everyday consumption and we laugh at historical insight into how useless of inventions they were seen at the time.

I'm pretty sure the treehugger sales point was left to Toyota, with Volt being more about not having to fill up often with gas and saving money by commuting on electric only. But group people together with prejudice as you'd like - no one can force you to not be close-minded.

And there is a big container ship hybrid (wind and biomass fueled) being developed right now, based on a yacht that already exists. It only seems sci-fi if you are uninformed and assume it's a stupid idea.

[Fusion]

You're wrong and don't understand the point. I'm glad you're not my consultant.

[rwh11385]

You're wrong and don't understand the point. I'm glad you're not my consultant.

Where am I wrong, and what point don't I understand?

[Fusion]

Care to explain why you speak of the Volt as something extraordinary in all ways, but don't own one yet?

[rwh11385]

Care to explain why you speak of the Volt as something extraordinary in all ways, but don't own one yet?

I'm not sure why that is related to me being wrong or missing a point previous to this, but I'm planning on buying one in the near-term future. As much as I'd love one right now, house renovations take priority.

[Fusion]

So its not financially feasible for you right now, even though you'd get a rebate and the car is economically smart according to your opinion?

[rwh11385]

So its not financially feasible for you right now, even though you'd get a rebate and the car is economically smart according to your opinion?

No, the Volt's price doesn't really have anything to do with it. Even the Nissan Versa sedan wouldn't suit me and it's the cheapest car here and nearly double my car's MPG. As I said, priority is on the housework and am fine with the current fuel efficiency for the meantime. Once that's done with, my priority will be buying the Volt to minimize running costs. And shopping for a solar panel to run my house and Volt off of. It's an investment for long-term cost savings, like buying a house vs. renting. Some people understand that, some don't.

[Wschnitz]

Im glad Tesla at least knows how to make electric cars. And price them. 150-300mi range on a charge for a sarting price of around 45k? Seems like a better deal.