Who pays taxes

[Schnitzer318is]

Fairtax

x2... flat tax wouldn't work.

Take 20% from the guy making $20000/yr and you seriously affect his standard of living. Take that same 20% from a millionaire and he probably doesn't even notice as far as standard of living is concerned.

[gwb72tii]

Then our country might as well call it quits now. If we don't feed the pig, no one will. And that goes for all party members. People forget that the government is us and we are it. It fails... we fail, and vice versa.

So many Americans now are about keeping every single dollar they can, no matter how many dollars they currently have... hoarding didn't do any good in the great depression and it won't do any good if the country goes into bankruptcy.

The ONLY way, and I repeat ONLY way, out of our current predicament is to cut spending AND increase taxes. PERIOD. I don't like it, you don't like it, democrats don't like it, republicans don't like it, independents don't like it. But it's the only solution to our problems. And I mean ALOT of our problems. Energy, wages, taxes, everything is so expensive now because our dollar isn't worth as much as other currencies.

no, actually it is not the only way
the budget was balanced during clinton's term by congress refusing to spend as much as clinton wanted, and by lowering taxes which actually increased economic activity (surprise!!)

since FDR, everytime tax rates have gone up, congress has spent more (surprise again), resulting in deficit spending. every time.

all taxes are regressive, they actually reduce economic output
every penny the government spends, except deficit spending, comes from the private sector, which takes it out of my and your hands.
that is why the so called multiplier effect of government spending is a myth, evidenced by todays economy.

[Schnitzer318is]

lowering taxes which actually increased economic activity (surprise!!)

That was not simply due to decreased taxes, if even attributable at all to them. That was an entirely different economic time period with completely different economic variables (interest rates, unemployment, etc). Also our national debt wasn't what it is today, we need more drastic measures than a small surplus. We need a HUGE influx of cash to throw towards the debt. Something that might make a dent in the principle, not just pay the interest for a year.

since FDR, everytime tax rates have gone up, congress has spent more (surprise again), resulting in deficit spending. every time.

No disagreement there. This is partially why social security is in the state it's in. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. That's why I said spending has to go down AND taxes have to go up, not one or the other.

every penny the government spends, except deficit spending, comes from the private sector, which takes it out of my and your hands.
that is why the so called multiplier effect of government spending is a myth, evidenced by todays economy.

Not every penny (they invest just like you and me), though agreed the vast majority of it is from the private sector and I'm not a believer of the multiplier effect either.

EDIT: This is an interesting chart.

Tax rates for the last hundred years.

[z31maniac]

x2... flat tax wouldn't work.

Take 20% from the guy making $20000/yr and you seriously affect his standard of living. Take that same 20% from a millionaire and he probably doesn't even notice as far as standard of living is concerned.

But wait a second, according to sleeve/joshh/Ctrl+V, EVERYONE can make a good middle class living, it just takes some hardwork.

Because once we all have an education, who is going to do the low-paying menial work that pays JUST enough for people to scrape by? We still need people to pick-up the trash, serve your fries at McDonalds, etc.

In other words, there will ALWAYS be people on the low end of the income scale.

Why does the die hard right seem to ignore this?

[87e30]

If you truly want to know how Americans feel about taxes I suggest you all read this study out of Duke:

http://www.people.hbs.edu/mnorton/no...in%20press.pdf

Interesting article. I'm not sure that it really means much, though. My point being that people may not realize (myself included) what the outcome would be if the distribution was as evenly spread as they reportedly "want."

[87e30]

But wait a second, according to sleeve/joshh/Ctrl+V, EVERYONE can make a good middle class living, it just takes some hardwork.

Because once we all have an education, who is going to do the low-paying menial work that pays JUST enough for people to scrape by? We still need people to pick-up the trash, serve your fries at McDonalds, etc.

In other words, there will ALWAYS be people on the low end of the income scale.

Why does the die hard right seem to ignore this?

Eh, some people like to pin those individuals as being lazy or complacent with where they are in life. It is an argument that can not be proven or disproven as far as I can tell. Who is to say if the bottom 40% COULD add money to their income with some better planning?

[mar1t1me]

EDIT: This is an interesting chart.

Tax rates for the last hundred years.

I think it's very interesting that during times of war, the rich have paid dearly to preserve the very society that buys their products and enriches them further. Look at the tax rates during WWI and WWII. Now look at the tax rates during the VERY expensive Gulf conflicts. Now, why again, is it we're broke?

[750]

x2... flat tax wouldn't work.

Take 20% from the guy making $20000/yr and you seriously affect his standard of living. Take that same 20% from a millionaire and he probably doesn't even notice as far as standard of living is concerned.

Both tax payers would not notice a change in there standard of living. 20k a year is entry level job, not something one is going to stay at there whole life. The flat tax is motivation to move up in the world. The more you make the more you get to take home. Get married you and your wife pay 20%. It is all motivation.

[joshh]

But wait a second, according to sleeve/joshh/Ctrl+V, EVERYONE can make a good middle class living, it just takes some hardwork.

Because once we all have an education, who is going to do the low-paying menial work that pays JUST enough for people to scrape by? We still need people to pick-up the trash, serve your fries at McDonalds, etc.

In other words, there will ALWAYS be people on the low end of the income scale.

Why does the die hard right seem to ignore this?

First to be totally semantic, the garbage guys up here make 17 hr ish....that's far from the bottom of the rung.

No one's ignoring this. Why can't you see that some people will ALWAYS be at the bottom and that it's their own responsibility to progress from there to a better position and allow the kids out of college and high school take the place of those at lower income levels?
We will never have an even wage across this country. Thank god!

How exactly is taking from the rich to give to Government going to give the poor more of a chance to find good paying jobs? Because in reality for the left, it's not about jobs.

[dirtysix]

But wait a second, according to sleeve/joshh/Ctrl+V, EVERYONE can make a good middle class living, it just takes some hardwork.

Because once we all have an education, who is going to do the low-paying menial work that pays JUST enough for people to scrape by? We still need people to pick-up the trash, serve your fries at McDonalds, etc.

In other words, there will ALWAYS be people on the low end of the income scale.

Why does the die hard right seem to ignore this?

Someone who actually gets it.
Encouraging.

[z31maniac]

First to be totally semantic, the garbage guys up here make 17 hr ish....that's far from the bottom of the rung.

No one's ignoring this. Why can't you see that some people will ALWAYS be at the bottom and that it's their own responsibility to progress from there to a better position and allow the kids out of college and high school take the place of those at lower income levels?
We will never have an even wage across this country. Thank god!

How exactly is taking from the rich to give to Government going to give the poor more of a chance to find good paying jobs? Because in reality for the left, it's not about jobs.

$35k/yr in Portland isn't peanuts, but I doubt it goes very far either.

You're missing the point, if that guy progresses someone else either HAS to fall from a higher position, or be fresh into the workforce. Which is why I made the point about going to college, who is going to go to college to graduate and pick up trash?

I'm not calling an for an equal wage. And I'm not saying "tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich," although it would be nice if the hedge fund guys had to at least pay the same amount of tax I do. ;)

[joshh]

$35k/yr in Portland isn't peanuts, but I doubt it goes very far either.

You're missing the point, if that guy progresses someone else either HAS to fall from a higher position, or be fresh into the workforce. Which is why I made the point about going to college, who is going to go to college to graduate and pick up trash?

I'm not calling an for an equal wage. And I'm not saying "tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich," although it would be nice if the hedge fund guys had to at least pay the same amount of tax I do. ;)

No I'm saying shit happens. If you have a college degree and you end up being a garbage man, you put yourself there. One way or another. Although this economy is an exception because people are having to do jobs they normally wouldn't do to pay the bills. But that has more to do with lack of jobs and Government interference in the economy than the persons choices at this point.
I've acknowledged that we do have a problem with kissing the ass of the rich in some areas. They get some benefits we will never see. Because they have the money to get those benefits. But it's the same at the bottom. You have to be making nothing or chump change to get help. At least what you show you make...
I dislike how the stock market works almost altogether. I've talked about that before. It's a scratch my back and I'll scratch yours system. And it's extremely easy to cheat it.

[Ryan Stewart]

x2... flat tax wouldn't work.

Take 20% from the guy making $20000/yr and you seriously affect his standard of living. Take that same 20% from a millionaire and he probably doesn't even notice as far as standard of living is concerned.

So? By saying "we have to take more from the rich so they will notice it and less from the poor so they wont" is blatantly class warfare. It basically shows that its nothing about "paying your due" because there is no evidence anywhere that shows that the rich use exponentially more services than the poor.

Its all about voters and by saying "i help the working class" it wins votes. If it was fair it would be fair, each person would pay their share regardless on some idea that "x wouldnt notice giving up a bit more."

I'm not calling an for an equal wage. And I'm not saying "tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich," although it would be nice if the hedge fund guys had to at least pay the same amount of tax I do. ;)

They don't, they blow you out of the water. In income taxes, payroll taxes and consumption/sin taxes. Everyone likes to act like the rich are getting out of paying taxes but even the IRS's own data shows that they pay the vast majority of them already and there are plenty of traps that keep people even as low as 50k a year from reducing their burdern.

Why does the die hard right seem to ignore this?

And the left seem to think that in the Utopian world that this shouldn't exist. That there shouldn't be people on the "losing" end. The right thinks that if you work hard you will be successful on your own and the left thinks that if you try to work hard then systems should be in place that keep you from being worse off than anyone else. That a street sweeper should be making $50k.

[Schnitzer318is]

So? By saying "we have to take more from the rich so they will notice it and less from the poor so they wont" is blatantly class warfare. It basically shows that its nothing about "paying your due" because there is no evidence anywhere that shows that the rich use exponentially more services than the poor.

Its all about voters and by saying "i help the working class" it wins votes. If it was fair it would be fair, each person would pay their share regardless on some idea that "x wouldnt notice giving up a bit more."

It is not class warfare... it is simple economics. Flat tax will not work because removing that $2000 from the $20,000/yr guys will hurt the economy more than removing even 50% from guys making $2,000,000. There are many hundreds of thousands more people making the $20,000/yr. So you are cutting that demographics spending power much more than the millionaires.

Both tax payers would not notice a change in there standard of living. 20k a year is entry level job, not something one is going to stay at there whole life. The flat tax is motivation to move up in the world. The more you make the more you get to take home. Get married you and your wife pay 20%. It is all motivation.

$20k/yr is NOT always an entry level job and in most cases for the lower and lower middle class 20k/yr is something they had to work for many years to achieve. The motivation argument is both ridiculous and small minded.

I think it's very interesting that during times of war, the rich have paid dearly to preserve the very society that buys their products and enriches them further. Look at the tax rates during WWI and WWII. Now look at the tax rates during the VERY expensive Gulf conflicts. Now, why again, is it we're broke?

Isn't it though.

[xwill112x]

I pay taxes..to the tune of almost $700 a year.