Chump for President

[nando]

haha, I have a wife and 2 kids. If I were young and could just drop everything, maybe.

I bought my shares well before anyone was talking about this pipeline thing too - I didn't even realize the two were related until relatively recently.

Do consider that maybe the pipeline thing is a little hyped up too - realistically, pipeline is by far the safest transmission form, relative to alternatives such as tankers, oil trains, or trucks. With isolation valves located every so many thousand feet, there's limited possibilities for a spill, while a tanker carries a huge volume, as does a train, and vehicle accidents are an every day occurrence.

But maybe diverting the pipeline through an Indian reservation wasn't the smartest idea either...

[decay]

haha, I have a wife and 2 kids. If I were young and could just drop everything, maybe.

I bought my shares well before anyone was talking about this pipeline thing too - I didn't even realize the two were related until relatively recently.

Do consider that maybe the pipeline thing is a little hyped up too - realistically, pipeline is by far the safest transmission form, relative to alternatives such as tankers, oil trains, or trucks. With isolation valves located every so many thousand feet, there's limited possibilities for a spill, while a tanker carries a huge volume, as does a train, and vehicle accidents are an every day occurrence.

But maybe diverting the pipeline through an Indian reservation wasn't the smartest idea either...

ok, so as an engineer, with some experience in military logistics- i actually thought trains would be the safest transport option. when there is an (inevitable) failure, at least it's localized to one car, hopefully, unless we're talking about a derailment.

pipeline leaks don't stop when one car's worth of product has spilled.

i'm sure the downside is that yes it is *much* more expensive to transport this way, but the safety gain seems worth the resultant end-cost to consumers (in my mind, at least).

requesting further input from both you and sleeve on this matter.

oh, and on that last comment... i found an article from a cartographer yesterday that *really* puts it in black and white:

https://northlandia.wordpress.com/2016/11/01/a-nodapl-map/

note the legend on the original route- "nixed by regulators due to concerns over drinking water in bismark area".

oh, we can't have this thing running near the white people's water source! we'll just put it over here...

(also yeah that is why i never did the wife and kids thing :P)

[nando]

there's potential for more than one car to leak in an train derailment. it's safer than trucks, but then you have incidences like Lac-Mégantic where it basically went off like a bomb and destroyed the entire town (I live in a small town where the oil trains go right through the heart of the city, right by the river, and right next to the high school).

The amount of oil leaked from a pipeline can basically be controlled, vs a train or tanker which is open ended. Properly set up, it's basically whatever is in the length of pipe between your isolation valves. On projects I have worked on, they are every 1/4 mile (which depending on the size of the pipeline, amounts to a few hundred gallons). Not good of course, but not devastating like Lac-Mégantic or a massive tanker leak like the Exxon Valdez.

Yeah, the irony of them moving the route is now it's directly passing through the lake, which seems far more risky to me. I have also noticed the tribes, even here, becoming more assertive in protecting their lands and rights than they have been in the past. Somebody made a poor choice there.

[decay]

The amount of oil leaked from a pipeline can basically be controlled, vs a train or tanker which is open ended. Properly set up, it's basically whatever is in the length of pipe between your isolation valves. On projects I have worked on, they are every 1/4 mile (which depending on the size of the pipeline, amounts to a few hundred gallons). Not good of course, but not devastating like Lac-Mégantic or a massive tanker leak like the Exxon Valdez.

good explain. thank you.

i can see how a tanker like the valdez is a similar disaster- i'm old enough to remember that happening. "what shall we do with a drunken sailor? put him in charge of an exxon tanker, early in the morning"

what's the control system on these isolation valves? is it remote, or does sleeve have to go out there and close it with his hands?

[marshallnoise]

I am enjoying this tech discussion.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[Ksbsn88]

Just wanted to chime in and say I am also an oil/gas worker so looks like we have three of us on the forum haha. I deal with large natural gas compressor stations. In the gas side of things there are not valves every 1/4 mile on any pipeline I have seen.

[decay]

Just wanted to chime in and say I am also an oil/gas worker so looks like we have three of us on the forum haha. I deal with large natural gas compressor stations. In the gas side of things there are not valves every 1/4 mile on any pipeline I have seen.

i'm okay with that- natural gas leak is a much less catastrophic failure.

but thanks for checking in- i do want to go out there equipped with knowledge (in addition to the riot gear).

just to report what i did over thanksgiving break- a little social media efforts got us $200 in cash donations from my local circle of friends, i spent a few hundred of my own, and i still have a $100 amazon gift card that i won from work in the "hacker games" where they train engineers like me in information-security stuff.

(i am actually a little happy with that- i got paid for being a half-ass decent hacker, and i'm using it to further the political causes i believe in. i am doing something right in life.)

having handled most of the PPE needs, i moved onto humanitarian efforts- a girl i know because we threw raves together 15-20 years ago and now works in social media in NYC bought a coffee maker and rallied people to buy beans and cups, so my buddy isaac (fellow iraq vet) and i are gonna be running around delivering coffee to people sitting in sub-zero temps for most of the night, until such time as shit goes down.

i thought those of you on the other side of the wire might appreciate a little transparency from my end.

[Curt Hayes]

Breaks in pipelines can be detected and protected for, ostensibly much easier than putting out the burning oil train, but you're relying on the pipeline companies to do their jobs. Nando, maybe you remember the Bellingham explosion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympi...line_explosion

[nando]

good explain. thank you.

i can see how a tanker like the valdez is a similar disaster- i'm old enough to remember that happening. "what shall we do with a drunken sailor? put him in charge of an exxon tanker, early in the morning"

what's the control system on these isolation valves? is it remote, or does sleeve have to go out there and close it with his hands?

They are usually automatically controlled using pressure sensors and other mechanisms. They have a manual handwheel too in case the mechanism fails, but no you're not waiting for mrsleeve to walk out there and hand turn the valve.

I don't know what the spacing is on a big transmission pipeline like this - but the maximum quantity of oil is still a known quantity and the risks can be mitigated.

Yes I remember that explosion. That was a natural gas line. There was another one a few years earlier, but it was out in the middle of a farmers field - there was a fireball about half a mile high for a couple days while they let it burn itself out.

But there are gas pipelines everywhere. Leaks like that are exceedingly rare, and they are taken seriously.

[mrsleeve]

Ok I will drop a pile pipeline of information on you guys when I get in for the day, facts and how it's done. There us a lit of myth and misinformation passed off in the media and social media as fact that's out and out bull shit from people that claim to know what's up but in reality have very little clue. I am not going to try and type it up on my phone.....

Any specific questions.

Edit: Sorry it turned into a late night I will have to get to this tomorrow I will say most Isolation valves on most cross country big inch systems are set up generally about every 8-30 miles depending on what your moving, terrain population density, how cheap the operation company is, FERC regulations or state requirements,, I am currently working on a 73 mile spread of 5XX some odd miles of 36" natural gas just west of Orlando FL to supply retrofitted and new power generation units for Duke energy and FL Power and Light as I am told. There are 6 mainline valves sets for our spread the spacing tightens up when we get down around the more densely populated areas around Disney and south orlando Vs the open farm and ranch land on the northern end of the job.... I dont know how much the spacing changes, I dont have any line sheets for this job and we have not even started fabing up the valve sets yet. Some of the much older and smaller systems are more like every 30-60 miles, though I have done many rehab jobs that involve swapping out old manual vales for new automated set ups and cutting in new ones to add more to an old system.

Nando correct me if I am wrong, but you do mostly design work for facilities and shipping terminals right??? Thats why your isolation valves are so much closer together, to mitigate a spill out over open water or very close to coastal waters.

Decay I sugest you look into Oil train derailments in the last couple of years, they have been tipping over a lot lately, BNSF dropped 3 air planes in the Clark Fork river last spring, it could have just as easily been 10-20 oil cars...

[decay]

Decay I sugest you look into Oil train derailments in the last couple of years, they have been tipping over a lot lately, BNSF dropped 3 air planes in the Clark Fork river last spring, it could have just as easily been 10-20 oil cars...

message received on that part. i will admit that i was not accurately assessing the maximum credible accident.

but i still stand by the argument that this pipeline reroute is bullshit.

so, still going.

today was hilarious at work. i'm a software engineer now, surrounded by a bunch of nerds who've only ever been software engineers.

my squad's polycarbonate riot shields showed up early.

"what's with the big-ass boxes at [decay]'s desk?" "oh, that's his riot gear." seriously, that conversation happened.

[Matt-B]

but then you have incidences like Lac-Mégantic where it basically went off like a bomb and destroyed the entire town.

Fwiw that was caused by human error, in which not enough handbrakes were applied, to unattended cars and loci, and rolled down a hill for some time then derailed. I dont worry about the oil trains
The one in the Gorge recently(Union Pacific) , was due to hot temp, and not enough safety inspections, or use use of high railers checking lines, and a faulty track. Also that specific oil from the Bakkan reserve, is generally known to contain various combustable gases.

BNSF in the state of Washington has the 2nd highest safety rating, within the company itself. Every factor from drug use, to derailments, and inspections are factored.

They also have lots of areas with speed restrictions, and use of concrete ties, to allow for safer travel at speed, or higher speed.

I work sometimes within a few feet of the tracks, and even experience the coal trains that run by. I had a lady ask, "how can you breathe" lol
The coal coming this way mostly is chunky and not dusty, and is sprayed and soaked with vegetable oil in Pasco, seattle etc, to minimize dust that would be an issue.

I guess what im getting at is, i wouldn't worry about trains blowing up your town, or schools.

[mrsleeve]

but the point is they have a great rate of incident by volume of product moved Vs major transmission pipeline

[nando]

Human error is always a factor where you have human operators. There's really not much "human error" factor in a pipeline. Yes, trains are safer than trucks - but still higher risk than a pipeline. That's the point.

An incident COULD happen, because we know they DO happen. I don't run for the hills when I see an oil train, but I'm aware of the risks.

BTW, we did the last two oil train terminals in the state of WA - the second one got scrapped due to permitting issues (also, they were late to the game and the price difference wasn't as significant). I know just a little bit about it. :p

[2mAn]

decay, you might want to see this before you venture out...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/n-dakota-law-enforcement-block-191301116.html