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    #61
    Originally posted by Quadrajet View Post
    The strange thing is I believe most of the M16's have been coming from or used by Mexican Army troops who are on the "take" from the cartels or deserters. How do I know this? The restrictions on class3 firearms here in the States baically let's me know that M16A2's didn't "migrate" across the border, they were either purchased by the Mexican Gov't or were supplied as military aid. That can be said for all select fire weapons that may be "found" at crime scenes. For that matter seeing how the world market on AK's is flooded and can be had cheap(select fire) it makes absolutely no sense for anyone to purchase semi auto only AK's here. They can be bought overseas in bulk and shipped or smuggled into Mexico much cheaper.
    You are correct, here's an extensive analysis of the guns that are being recovered:

    Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth

    U.S. Government Accountability Office Report on Arms TraffickingSTRATFOR is not responsible for the content of other Web sites.

    By Scott Stewart

    For several years now, STRATFOR has been closely watching developments in Mexico that relate to what we consider the three wars being waged there. Those three wars are the war between the various drug cartels, the war between the government and the cartels, and the war being waged against citizens and businesses by criminals.

    In addition to watching tactical developments of the cartel wars on the ground and studying the dynamics of the conflict among the various warring factions, we have also been paying close attention to the ways that both the Mexican and U.S. governments have reacted to these developments. Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects to watch has been the way in which the Mexican government has tried to deflect responsibility for the cartel wars away from itself and onto the United States. According to the Mexican government, the cartel wars are not a result of corruption in Mexico or of economic and societal dynamics that leave many Mexicans marginalized and desperate to find a way to make a living. Instead, the cartel wars are due to the insatiable American appetite for narcotics and the endless stream of guns that flows from the United States into Mexico and that results in Mexican violence.

    Interestingly, the part of this argument pertaining to guns has been adopted by many politicians and government officials in the United States in recent years. It has now become quite common to hear U.S. officials confidently assert that 90 percent of the weapons used by the Mexican drug cartels come from the United States. However, a close examination of the dynamics of the cartel wars in Mexico -- and of how the oft-echoed 90 percent number was reached -- clearly demonstrates that the number is more political rhetoric than empirical fact.

    By the Numbers

    As we discussed in a previous analysis, the 90 percent number was derived from a June 2009 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report to Congress on U.S. efforts to combat arms trafficking to Mexico (see external link).

    According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

    This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

    The remaining 22,800 firearms seized by Mexican authorities in 2008 were not traced for a variety of reasons. In addition to factors such as bureaucratic barriers and negligence, many of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities either do not bear serial numbers or have had their serial numbers altered or obliterated. It is also important to understand that the Mexican authorities simply don't bother to submit some classes of weapons to the ATF for tracing. Such weapons include firearms they identify as coming from their own military or police forces, or guns that they can trace back themselves as being sold through the Mexican Defense Department's Arms and Ammunition Marketing Division (UCAM). Likewise, they do not ask ATF to trace military ordnance from third countries like the South Korean fragmentation grenades commonly used in cartel attacks.

    Of course, some or even many of the 22,800 firearms the Mexicans did not submit to ATF for tracing may have originated in the United States. But according to the figures presented by the GAO, there is no evidence to support the assertion that 90 percent of the guns used by the Mexican cartels come from the United States -- especially when not even 50 percent of those that were submitted for tracing were ultimately found to be of U.S. origin.

    This point leads us to consider the types of weapons being used by the Mexican cartels and where they come from.

    Types and Sources of Guns

    To gain an understanding of the dynamics of the gun flow inside Mexico, it helps if one divides the guns seized by Mexican authorities from criminals into three broad categories -- which, incidentally, just happen to represent three different sources.

    Type 1: Guns Legally Available in Mexico

    The first category of weapons encountered in Mexico is weapons available legally for sale in Mexico through UCAM. These include handguns smaller than a .357 magnum such as .380 and .38 Special.

    A large portion of this first type of guns used by criminals is purchased in Mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners. While UCAM does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from UCAM or obtain them from corrupt officials. Cartel hit men in Mexico commonly use .380 pistols equipped with sound suppressors in their assassinations. In many cases, these pistols are purchased in Mexico, the suppressors are locally manufactured and the guns are adapted to receive the suppressors by Mexican gunsmiths.

    It must be noted, though, that because of the cost and hassle of purchasing guns in Mexico, many of the guns in this category are purchased in the United States and smuggled into the country. There are a lot of cheap guns available on the U.S. market, and they can be sold at a premium in Mexico. Indeed, guns in this category, such as .380 pistols and .22-caliber rifles and pistols, are among the guns most commonly traced back to the United States. Still, the numbers do not indicate that 90 percent of guns in this category come from the United States.

    Additionally, most of the explosives the cartels have been using in improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in Mexico over the past year have used commercially available Tovex, so we consider these explosives to fall in this first category. Mexican IEDs are another area where the rhetoric has been interesting to analyze, but we will explore this topic another time.

    Type 2: Guns Legally Available in the U.S. but Not in Mexico

    Many popular handgun calibers, such as 9 mm, .45 and .40, are reserved for the military and police and are not available for sale to civilians in Mexico. These guns, which are legally sold and very popular in the United States, comprise our second category, which also includes .50-caliber rifles, semiautomatic versions of assault rifles like the AK-47 and M16 and the FN Five-Seven pistol.

    When we consider this second type of guns, a large number of them encountered in Mexico are likely purchased in the United States. Indeed, the GAO report notes that many of the guns most commonly traced back to the United States fall into this category. There are also many .45-caliber and 9 mm semiautomatic pistols and .357 revolvers obtained from deserters from the Mexican military and police, purchased from corrupt Mexican authorities or even brought in from South America (guns made by manufacturers such as Taurus and Bersa). This category also includes semiautomatic variants of assault rifles and main battle rifles, which are often converted by Mexican gunsmiths to be capable of fully automatic fire.

    One can buy these types of weapons on the international arms market, but one pays a premium for such guns and it is cheaper and easier to simply buy them in the United States or South America and smuggle them into Mexico. In fact, there is an entire cottage industry that has developed to smuggle such weapons, and not all the customers are cartel hit men. There are many Mexican citizens who own guns in calibers such as .45, 9 mm, .40 and .44 magnum for self-defense -- even though such guns are illegal in Mexico.

    Type 3: Guns Not Available for Civilian Purchase in Mexico or the U.S.

    The third category of weapons encountered in Mexico is military-grade ordnance not generally available for sale in the United States or Mexico. This category includes hand grenades, 40 mm grenades, rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), automatic assault rifles and main battle rifles and light machine guns.

    This third type of weapon is fairly difficult and very expensive to obtain in the United States, especially in the large numbers in which the cartels are employing them. They are also dangerous to obtain in the United States due to heavy law enforcement scrutiny. Therefore, most of the military ordnance used by the Mexican cartels comes from other sources, such as the international arms market -- increasingly from China via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing -- or from corrupt elements in the Mexican military or even deserters who take their weapons with them. Besides, items such as South Korean fragmentation grenades and RPG-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the U.S. arsenal. This means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the United States.

    In recent years the cartels, especially their enforcer groups such as Los Zetas, Gente Nueva and La Linea, have been increasingly using military weaponry instead of sporting arms. A close examination of the arms seized from the enforcer groups and their training camps clearly demonstrates this trend toward military ordnance, including many weapons not readily available in the United States. Some of these seizures have included M60 machine guns and hundreds of 40 mm grenades obtained from the military arsenals of countries like Guatemala.

    But Guatemala is not the only source of such weapons. Latin America is awash in weapons that were shipped there over the past several decades to supply the various insurgencies and counterinsurgencies in the region. When these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black arms market. The Mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to Mexico from South America, and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in South and Central America and then smuggle them into Mexico. While there are many weapons in this category that were manufactured in the United States, the overwhelming majority of the U.S.-manufactured weapons of this third type encountered in Mexico -- like LAW rockets and M60 machine guns -- come into Mexico from third countries and not directly from the United States.

    There are also some cases of overlap between classes of weapons. For example, the FN Five-Seven pistol is available for commercial purchase in the United States, but the 5.7x28 armor-piercing ammunition for the pistol favored by the cartels is not -- it is a restricted item. However, some of the special operations forces units in the Mexican military are issued the Five-Seven as well as the FN P90 personal defense weapon, which also shoots the 5.7x28 round, and the cartels are obtaining some of these weapons and the armor-piercing ammunition from them and not from the United States. Conversely, we see bulk 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm ammunition bought in the United States and smuggled into Mexico, where it is used in fully automatic AK-47s and M16s purchased elsewhere. As noted above, China has become an increasingly common source for military weapons like grenades and fully automatic assault rifles in recent years.

    To really understand Mexico's gun problem, however, it is necessary to recognize that the same economic law of supply and demand that fuels drug smuggling into the United States also fuels gun smuggling into Mexico. Black market guns in Mexico can fetch up to 300 percent of their normal purchase price -- a profit margin rivaling the narcotics the cartels sell. Even if it were somehow possible to hermetically seal the U.S.-Mexico border and shut off all the guns coming from the United States, the cartels would still be able to obtain weapons elsewhere -- just as narcotics would continue to flow into the United States from other places. The United States does provide cheap and easy access to certain types of weapons and ammunition, but as demonstrated by groups such as the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, weapons can be easily obtained from other sources via the black arms market -- albeit at a higher price.

    There has clearly been a long and well-documented history of arms smuggling across the U.S.-Mexico border, but it is important to recognize that, while the United States is a significant source of certain classes of weapons and ammunition, it is by no means the source of 90 percent of the weapons used by the Mexican cartels, as is commonly asserted.
    The fact that most of the guns aren't coming from the US only reinforces how absurd the concept that F&F was created as a roundabout justification for a future AWB 2.0 .

    Originally posted by jw 325ic View Post
    You dont think outside the box or long term, do you?
    I can't afford that much aluminum foil.

    Comment


      #62
      Obama will be signing a gun control treaty on July 27th 2012.
      Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

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      Comment


        #63
        Yup and the senate wont ratify it either. ;) you know as well as I that for a treaty to hold any legal authority in the US it has to be ratified by the senate. IIRC Slick willy did the same thing in 96 wasn't it.

        But yeah I know where your coming from dub its going to be interesting here very soon
        Originally posted by Fusion
        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
        William Pitt-

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          #64
          Ulysses, don't take my post as affirmation that F&F wasn't a ruse. I wouldn't trust Obama or Holder as far as I could throw them. I wouldn't put it past certain politicians to bend or fabricate stats to suit their agenda. I've seen them try that nonesense in my State.

          If it wasn't a swindle, then what's the harm in Holder releasing any and all pertinent info being asked for? I thought this was supposed to be a presidency that was transparent? Or am I misrepresenting a campaign promise, I seem to remember hearing?

          Comment


            #65
            is this old news? first time i heard of it, by accident.
            sleeve?

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            Comment


              #66
              ^

              Thats a new one to me as well. Hollow point are not used by the military as they violate Geneva's. Yeah that is kinda odd, will do some looking into that when I have some time in the next few days.
              Originally posted by Fusion
              If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
              The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


              The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

              Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
              William Pitt-

              Comment


                #67
                The only use of those rounds that makes any sense to me is the US. Forest Service/Fish & Wildlife Service. If a field officer finds himself confronted by a large (and presumably miffed) animal and only has a .40 sidearm, he's going to be wanting his clip filled with hollow points. I'm okay with that. I have no plans on turning into a kodiak or a moose. USFS also bought a much smaller amount of rounds, compared with the other departments. Those numbers seem reasonable to me.

                I find the other purchases to be very disturbing.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                  ^

                  Thats a new one to me as well. Hollow point are not used by the military as they violate Geneva's. Yeah that is kinda odd, will do some looking into that when I have some time in the next few days.

                  Hollow points can be used by the military. Its more for accuracy over longer distances. The center of gravity of the bullet is moved back due to the hollow point. Elite forces use the 77gn Sierra Match Kings for their ammo of choice.

                  Also its against the Geneva to shoot anyone with a 1/2 diameter bore. Yet the military uses the Barrett every day for long distance sniping.

                  Nothing new at all...
                  Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

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                  Comment


                    #69
                    ^

                    yeah I knew the military uses H/P on a limited basis, just didnt think in side arm rounds.


                    Originally posted by quickervicar View Post
                    The only use of those rounds that makes any sense to me is the US. Forest Service/Fish & Wildlife Service. If a field officer finds himself confronted by a large (and presumably miffed) animal and only has a .40 sidearm, he's going to be wanting his clip filled with hollow points. I'm okay with that. I have no plans on turning into a kodiak or a moose. USFS also bought a much smaller amount of rounds, compared with the other departments. Those numbers seem reasonable to me.

                    I find the other purchases to be very disturbing.
                    Ummm You dont want to be using a fucking 40cal to ward off pissed of critters. You live in PA where you the worst you have to deal with is a medium sized black bear (but not really even where live lol) and I would not even be wanting a 45 for that. US FS/MT Fish and game /DNR all carry 44mag with flat nosed heavy FMJ's You want mags and heavy ass rounds when dealing with bears. There are confirmed stories of 6 44mag rounds pancaked on the sternum of grizzly bears, that just pisses them off, I dont venture 10 feet from the truck in the woods at home with out a 454 Casull or 44mag with hot loads on my hip, or bear spray for that matter. You are not an outdoorsy person are you????

                    Those rounds the US/FS bought are not for dispatching animals they are for people for the obvious reasons I have pointed out above. The Park ranges that patrol front country camp grounds and main park roads mostly carry pistols and those that are in the back country wheels guns.
                    Last edited by mrsleeve; 07-12-2012, 02:37 PM.
                    Originally posted by Fusion
                    If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                    The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                    The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                    William Pitt-

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by gwb72tii View Post
                      is this old news? first time i heard of it, by accident.
                      sleeve?

                      http://gerarddirect.com/2012/07/11/b...point-bullets/

                      Also this ammo purchase is not for our military and do not have to follow the rules of war. This ammo is purchased to be used against its own people if there ever was a need.
                      Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

                      Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                        ^

                        yeah I knew the military uses H/P on a limited basis, just didnt think in side arm rounds.




                        Ummm You dont want to be using a fucking 40cal to ward off pissed of critters. You live in PA where you the worst you have to deal with is a medium sized black bear (but not really even where live lol) and I would not even be wanting a 45 for that. US FS/MT Fish and game /DNR all carry 44mag with flat nosed heavy FMJ's You want mags and heavy ass rounds when dealing with bears. There are confirmed stories of 6 44mag rounds pancaked on the sternum of grizzly bears, that just pisses them off, I dont venture 10 feet from the truck in the woods at home with out a 454 Casull or 44mag with hot loads on my hip, or bear spray for that matter. You are not an outdoorsy person are you????

                        Those rounds the US/FS bought are not for dispatching animals they are for people for the obvious reasons I have pointed out above. The Park ranges that patrol front country camp grounds and main park roads mostly carry pistols and those that are in the back country wheels guns.
                        I am outdoorsy and I realize everything you have stated. You definitely don't want to have a .40 as your only choice in that situation. But if it IS your only choice....

                        We're on the same page with this. An argument could be made by US/FS for animal defense, but it is a weak argument at best.
                        Last edited by quickervicar; 07-13-2012, 07:30 AM.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Aircrew use hollow point as an anti-hijacking weapon because we wear as concealed weapon.

                          We went briefly to ball after 9/11 when we were flying in theater over Geneva concerns but went back to h/p for hijacking vs protection. 9mm and 16 rounds is not worth squat.
                          https://www.facebook.com/BentOverRacing

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                            #73
                            Holder Cleared of Wrong Doing in Fast and Furious

                            WASHINGTON — The Justice Department’s inspector general on Wednesday issued a scathing critique of federal officials for their handling of the botched gun-trafficking case known as Operation Fast and Furious, but essentially exonerated Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., whom many Republicans have blamed for the scandal.

                            In a long-awaited report, the inspector general, Michael E. Horowitz, laid primary blame on what he portrayed as a dysfunctional and poorly supervised group of Arizona-based federal prosecutors and agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, describing them as “permeated” by “a series of misguided strategies, tactics, errors in judgment and management failures” that allowed a risky strategy to continue despite the danger to public safety.

                            The long-running controversy over Operation Fast and Furious, which ran from late 2009 to early 2011, stemmed from the fact that the A.T.F. officials directing it did not act swiftly to seize illegal weapons because they hoped to bring a bigger case against the organizers of a gun-smuggling network linked to a Mexican drug gang. The officials eventually lost track of hundreds of weapons, including two that were found near the site of where a Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, was killed in a shootout.

                            The 471-page report is likely to be the closest definitive accounting of the operation, which has been the source of continuing confrontation between Congressional Republicans and the Obama administration, including a House vote to cite Mr. Holder for contempt in June.

                            For more than a year, some Republicans and commentators on conservative news media outlets have floated theories that senior Obama officials must have approved the operation — deliberately fostering gun violence to provide a rationale for strengthening gun-control laws — and that they were engaged in a cover-up.

                            The inspector general’s investigation found no evidence to support those accusations.

                            Still, it faulted several Justice Department officials for related failures, including not recognizing what should have been red flags about the way Operation Fast and Furious was unfolding and failing to follow up on information about both it and a similar 2006 case called Operation Wide Receiver. In the earlier case, Arizona-based A.T.F. agents also used “the tactic of failing to seize firearms despite having a sufficient legal basis to do so” in the hope of identifying more dangerous criminals.

                            Among other things, the report faulted several higher-level Justice Department officials for not asking more questions, focusing in particular on Jason Weinstein, an assistant deputy attorney general who had learned about the Operation Wide Receiver case in the spring of 2010 and who signed off on several wiretap applications for Operation Fast and Furious that, the report said, should have alerted him to ask more questions and raise alarms.

                            Mr. Weinstein resigned on Wednesday. He portrayed himself in his letter of resignation as a scapegoat.

                            “I recognize that, in the dynamic of internal investigations of this nature, particularly when they become enmeshed in politicized Congressional hearings, it is virtually inevitable that someone must be singled out for blame, whether the facts support it or not,” Mr. Weinstein said in his letter. “That is what the inspector general’s report has done with regard to me here.”

                            Another official, Kenneth E. Melson, who was acting director of the A.T.F. at the time of the gun operation, retired on Wednesday.

                            Mr. Holder has already reassigned all the major A.T.F. officials associated with the case, including Mr. Melson and William Newell, the special agent in charge of the A.T.F.’s field office in Phoenix, whom the report found “bore ultimate responsibility for the failures in Operation Fast and Furious.”

                            The report singled out the actions of 17 officials — two of whom have resigned — for a closer look, recommending that most be reviewed for possible discipline or administrative action.

                            A department official said Mr. Holder has admonished one Justice Department official who has also attracted Congressional scrutiny: Lanny A. Breuer, chief of the department’s criminal division. The report criticized him for not alerting Mr. Holder when he learned in 2010 that guns had reached criminals as a result of Operation Wide Receiver — something that Mr. Breuer has acknowledged and apologized for.

                            But, the official said, Mr. Holder planned no further action against Mr. Breuer, or against two top aides whom the report criticized for not doing more in December 2010 when they learned that two firearms found at the Terry murder scene were connected to an A.T.F. gun-trafficking investigation.

                            Mr. Holder said on Wednesday that he had referred several A.T.F. officials and Arizona-based prosecutors for disciplinary review, but that he could not say more because of the Privacy Act. He also essentially declared himself to have been vindicated.

                            “It is unfortunate that some were so quick to make baseless accusations before they possessed the facts about these operations — accusations that turned out to be without foundation and that have caused a great deal of unnecessary harm and confusion,” he said.

                            But Representative Darrell Issa, the California Republican who has led the Congressional oversight investigation into the matter and has been among Mr. Holder’s most outspoken critics, also portrayed the report as his own vindication. He focused in particular on the wiretap applications signed by Mr. Weinstein, the details of which, Mr. Issa had claimed, had put Mr. Weinstein in a position to know about the tactics used in Operation Fast and Furious. The inspector general agreed.

                            “Contrary to the denials of the attorney general and his political defenders in Congress, the investigation found that information in wiretap applications approved by senior Justice Department officials in Washington did contain red flags showing reckless tactics and faults Attorney General Eric Holder’s inner circle for their conduct,” Mr. Issa said.

                            It was the first major report by Mr. Horowitz, whose office had access to tens of thousands of documents that were not made available to Congressional investigators. Those documents included internal e-mails from 2011 over which President Obama had asserted executive privilege and which Mr. Holder had refused to provide in response to a subpoena.

                            One section of the report cites extensively from those e-mails, showing how Justice Department officials struggled to understand the truth about Operation Fast and Furious after they had sent a letter to Congress on Feb. 4 that falsely said the A.T.F. had made every effort to seize weapons. A department official said it sent Congress about 300 pages of such documents on Wednesday.

                            Mr. Horowitz’s staff also spoke to more than 130 officials, some of whom had not been interviewed by Congress. They included former Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, who Mr. Horowitz found did not know about failures to immediately seize illegal weapons in the Operation Wide Receiver case, and several low-ranking prosecutors whom the department had declined to make available.
                            So much for hard hitting congressional investigations!

                            Comment


                              #74
                              of course Holder would no go down, Obama would not let his brother take the rap.



                              The report on Operation Fast and Furious released today by the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General says a member of the White House National Security staff declined to be interviewed for the inspector general's investigation and that the White House itself did not produce internal documents for the investigation because the White House said it was "beyond the purview" of the inspector general.



                              covered up as usual!
                              Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

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                              Comment


                                #75
                                Man I should use that tactic more often, just wave my hands and say "it's a cover up!"

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