The official R3V Presidential poll

[JBird]

Obama

[10Toes]

Obama

:-o

[Todd Black 88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhA0sEkuaM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This should help you guys out.

[Pantless Spency]

obama

[Todd Black 88]

And you guys no NOTHING about paying taxes. My f'n property taxes alone were $4700 this year, and we cannot deduct any of that on our taxes, nor can we deduct interest payed on our mortgages.

F me!

[JBird]

I wish taxes didn't have such a bad name in the U.S. It kinda sucks that everyone hates taxes and doesn't want to pay them. I believe that taxes are overall a very good thing. American's hate taxes.

[10Toes]

I wish taxes didn't have such a bad name in the U.S. It kinda sucks that everyone hates taxes and doesn't want to pay them. I believe that taxes are overall a very good thing. American's hate taxes.

It probably has more to do with how they wast all the money they get from taxes. I don't like paying money to the government and then have them hand it out to poor lazy fucks.

[gwb72tii]

I wish taxes didn't have such a bad name in the U.S. It kinda sucks that everyone hates taxes and doesn't want to pay them. I believe that taxes are overall a very good thing. American's hate taxes.

were you asleep in history class?

[mrsleeve]

^
:rofl:

Nahhh they dont teach that kinda thing much anymore

[rwh11385]

were you asleep in history class?

Maybe he ought to find his way into an econ class?

I wish taxes didn't have such a bad name in the U.S. It kinda sucks that everyone hates taxes and doesn't want to pay them. I believe that taxes are overall a very good thing. American's hate taxes.

Taxes create loss of welfare (in economy terms ~= happiness). People buy more and do more if they face lower taxes. It's especially moronic that we tax (which is generally considered what you do for what you want to discourage) income.

[herbivor]

Taxes create loss of welfare (in economy terms ~= happiness). People buy more and do more if they face lower taxes. It's especially moronic that we tax (which is generally considered what you do for what you want to discourage) income.

I think it's been pretty well proven that taxation and happiness have no correlation. Loss of liberties perhaps, but not taxation. I would agree that taxation of income as a primary source of revenue is probably not the best way to encourage economic growth, though I am not an economist, so I could be completely wrong.

[mrsleeve]

heeter iirc the bird is a chick

That said herbie I am calling bull shit, I know I would be much happier if if was not sending 30% of my income every year to the Feds and the state. The state I dont so much mind as its not an obnoxious total that I pay to them. The feds on the other hand, dont even offer a reach around or spit on it first.

[rwh11385]

I think it's been pretty well proven that taxation and happiness have no correlation. Loss of liberties perhaps, but not taxation. I would agree that taxation of income as a primary source of revenue is probably not the best way to encourage economic growth, though I am not an economist, so I could be completely wrong.

There's a difference between utility and happiness, but it was a loose translation for a layman who didn't know why taxes are harmful. Your economic utility is increased by eating a burger, but it doesn't mean you must be happy afterwards. Taxes strain economies and the ability of people to do things, and we accomplish less because of its weight pulling down. Therefore, the overall welfare of society is diminished by the effects of taxes. You could still be happy with nothing, or at least less things or activities... but that's not generally what we seek.

Individual utility and social utility can be construed as the value of a utility function and a social welfare function respectively.

Sorry for trying to briefly point out the troubles with taxes, here's a 53 report discussing utility vs. happiness: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mkimb...ap-3march6.pdf

edit: Just imagine taxes as friction that reduce our ability to accomplish as much as we could with less of them. The revenue they generate is not as great as the energy or resources spent, and there is a waste. Inefficiency in the use of tax revenues also creates waste. Just look at Singapore as how economies can benefit from lower taxes. There will also be some taxes, but they don't have to be as great and have typically been the same % of GDP, regardless of marginal tax rates - just a matter of how much you want the economy to grow or be dragged down.

[herbivor]

edit: Just imagine taxes as friction that reduce our ability to accomplish as much as we could with less of them. The revenue they generate is not as great as the energy or resources spent, and there is a waste. Inefficiency in the use of tax revenues also creates waste. Just look at Singapore as how economies can benefit from lower taxes. There will also be some taxes, but they don't have to be as great and have typically been the same % of GDP, regardless of marginal tax rates - just a matter of how much you want the economy to grow or be dragged down.

I'll read the paper. Thanks for the link. So for you and Sleeve who hate taxes and consider them a strain on the economy, should that mean we have no taxes? I would think no taxes means no services, which means a lot of unhappy people and not a very prosperous economy. Where is the balance where one would say " Yeah, that sounds like a good share to give to the government.?" That would also imply you have a different desire for services than others may have. I may want everyone to have healthcare at a universally shared cost whereas you may not give a shit about the poor or weak and not want that level of service. Or you may want a strong defense for protection, whereas I may not see the threat of attack as impacting my life.
I mean theses different desires are the problem right? We all want some things but don't want to pay for other things and the politicians are an extension of our collective ideologies and emotions.

[rwh11385]

I'll read the paper. Thanks for the link. So for you and Sleeve who hate taxes and consider them a strain on the economy, should that mean we have no taxes? I would think no taxes means no services, which means a lot of unhappy people and not a very prosperous economy. Where is the balance where one would say " Yeah, that sounds like a good share to give to the government.?" That would also imply you have a different desire for services than others may have. I may want everyone to have healthcare at a universally shared cost whereas you may not give a shit about the poor or weak and not want that level of service. Or you may want a strong defense for protection, whereas I may not see the threat of attack as impacting my life.
I mean theses different desires are the problem right? We all want some things but don't want to pay for other things and the politicians are an extension of our collective ideologies and emotions.

I think that's a ridiculous argument since I said there will always (meant to put always not also) be taxes but they don't have to be as great or restrictive.

The balance does depend on the people's desire for the role of the government. But reducing waste would increase the amount of revenues going to productive services and capital goods. And turning it into class warfare or slinging mud at the other candidate instead of talking about the most beneficial strategy for the country is counter-acting progress. A problem is government wanting to keep itself relevant and employed, and chase the problems they created with each series of "solutions" and promises. Another big problem is the devoid of logic or reason in politics and pure emotional appeal, particularly in the anti-intellectual RWNJ who see smart educated elites as evil people who want to take over everyone's lives.

My personal desire is for the next President to listen to Neil deGrasse Tyson and just dump money into NASA research, as well as DARPA and ARPA-E. A significant percentage of our economy is internet-based and really has changed business and the world. And how important is GPS? And NASA puts out many "spin-off" opportunities each year. Although it is not as high as France, Germany, the UK, or Japan, 50% of the US's gdp growth in the last 50 years is attributable to technology advances: http://tekedia.com/16241/how-technol...alf-a-century/ The emphasis of growing the economy from consuming (and wasting/throwing away) more is foolhardy and clearly bit us when we look at the mortgage crisis. And population is barely going to grow. So then we can all argue til we turn blue about economic plans, budgets, tax rates, the 1%, etc. but the truth is that new technology springs forth an improved world and a greater economy. I see us on a cusp of energy revolution, as much as the Right despise such an idea, and have a blossoming civil space industry. And we really could use a healthcare revolution and possibly a cure for cancer with it. And there is private R&D investment, but I believe it is still in the national interest to invest in research and technology. But we need open-minded and well educated and highly skilled trained people to support those potential growth opportunities - not just people with high aspirations (or big demands). You also cannot make more in total from taking from another... the answer is to grow the pie and more efficient taxes along with more technology innovation hopefully will make that possible. Here's at least good discussion on the future's potential:



You cannot build a society up from taking from those at the top and giving to those at the bottom, but the world can grow and we can benefit from improving technology and practices in the developing world - particularly Africa. From teaching and demonstrating agricultural practices to growing their industrial economy from more efficient agricultural (look at the US's shift in employment), they can grow as a handful of countries are and create demand for the developed countries. We had a lot of growth selling to the BRICs and there has been some challenges getting over their teenage years, but more improvement in Africa and also other areas and further advancement of our own country can give a huge rise in well being, resources, and utility in the world. There can be enough for everyone, as long as we really focus on sustainability and efficiency.