waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles Riot - government vs religion

[mrsleeve]

^
how about Iran????

[nando]

The Founding Fathers were as much religious as I am. By many standards, I am considered Christian because of where I was born and who my ancestors are. But through my own logical discourse, I have come to the conclusion that I am NOT CHRISTIAN. The same can be said of the Founding Fathers. They were not in any sense religious beyond the condition in which they were born. In fact, they were VERY MUCH non-religious people. They were VERY CLEAR about this and considerable evidence of such can be found through their writings and actions within the government. Many of them labeled themselves as Deists, which is really the 18th Century equivalent of Atheist as it completely rejects any sense of religion. And Thomas Jefferson even went as far as to create his own Bible by removing Jesus's miracles and claims of divinity and adding things from other books.



"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."

"Revealed religion has no weight with me."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

-Ben Franklin



"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

- Thomas Jefferson



AND PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUOTE OF THEM ALL NEXT TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT. This is from the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Congress and John Adams.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Facts have no place when vague references to the founding fathers, the constitution ("it's somewhere towards the back") and political ideology would do. :p

[Jean]

/sidetracked....



If religion was truly separate from govt, would the "in god we trust" be on the bill?

[frankenbeemer]

/sidetracked....



If religion was truly separate from govt, would the "in god we trust" be on the bill?

If only I could remember the original point of this thread.

[nando]

/sidetracked....



If religion was truly separate from govt, would the "in god we trust" be on the bill?

AFAIK it wasn't until more modern times when "god" appeared on our money.

remember the pledge of allegiance to the flag? yeah, that was from 1950's mcarthyism. they don't do it anymore either. as a gradeschool kid you really have no idea what you're saying, just do as your told..

[LBJefferies]

/sidetracked....



If religion was truly separate from govt, would the "in god we trust" be on the bill?

The motto "In God We Trust" was not added to currency until 1957. Furthermore, the original version of the Pledge of Allegiance did not include the words "Under God" and it was at this time that the phrase was added as well. These actions were taken as a political move to distinguish the United States from the "godless" communists. Neither money, nor the pledge, had any religious preference until politics took over.

This is a perfect example of ignorance from Christians. It's just like when Christians claim that the Founding Fathers were religious and that this country was founded on Christian principles. It's just patently false. I wonder where in the world they got their information from. But then again, I wouldn't expect anything less from people that believe, in the face of contradictory evidence, that there is a man in the sky who watches over humans and answers prayer and performs miracles. So, believing shit that isn't true is just normal for them.

[gwb72tii]

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

and

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

somehow God made it into the Declaration of Independence

[LBJefferies]

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

and

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

somehow God made it into the Declaration of Independence

Yes you are right, but it is not a Christian God. Thomas Jefferson was a very vocal Deist.

[cale]

Question, is there any point that you guys think that your country should reflect its people and not simply the direction it came from? Lets say there comes a time when the statistics of America match those of some European nations, do you think that it's still reasonable to argue that the US is a Christian nation (which it is not) and that the beliefs of those who lived several hundred years ago outweigh the beliefs of its current citizens?

I for one think countries need to shift to reflect their people, not have what identifies them carved into stone for eternity.

[LBJefferies]

Question, is there any point that you guys think that your country should reflect its people and not simply the direction it came from? Lets say there comes a time when the statistics of America match those of some European nations, do you think that it's still reasonable to argue that the US is a Christian nation (which it is not) and that the beliefs of those who lived several hundred years ago outweigh the beliefs of its current citizens?

I for one think countries need to shift to reflect their people, not have what identifies them carved into stone for eternity.

No, that is why the First Amendment exists in the first place, to prevent a situation like that. The US never has been, and never will be, a Christian nation. Period.

[Kershaw]

gwb, how can you post that, with it saying, their creator, and then saying it's the same as saying god. ffs, that's 2 very different terms. one says, everyone has their own creator and there are many of these and the other says, this is my one and only god.

If religion was truly separate from govt, would the "in god we trust" be on the bill?

great point.

let's remove in god we trust from the bills. we are done with mccarthyism, right?

[gwb72tii]

gwb, how can you post that, with it saying, their creator, and then saying it's the same as saying god. ffs, that's 2 very different terms. one says, everyone has their own creator and there are many of these and the other says, this is my one and only god.



great point.

let's remove in god we trust from the bills. we are done with mccarthyism, right?

i'm just sayin'
religion had an influence in our FF's thinkings and beliefs, that is all

[gwb72tii]

Question, is there any point that you guys think that your country should reflect its people and not simply the direction it came from? Lets say there comes a time when the statistics of America match those of some European nations, do you think that it's still reasonable to argue that the US is a Christian nation (which it is not) and that the beliefs of those who lived several hundred years ago outweigh the beliefs of its current citizens?

I for one think countries need to shift to reflect their people, not have what identifies them carved into stone for eternity.

great, since self described conservatives outnumber progressives 2 to 1, and the country is clearly right of center politically, let's roll back all the social programs

[nando]

2:1? lol, according to who? faux news?

[2761377]

annuit coeptis

as far as God and the framers are concerned consider these facts of the Great Seal of the United States-

-approved in 1782, before the Constitution was envisaged.

- the obverse has the phrase "Annuit Coeptis", which is generally translated as-

ANNUIT means to nod assent, to favor, to smile upon.
COEPTIS means undertakings, endeavors, beginnings.
Annuit coeptis means "favors (lit., gives the nod to) undertakings." The subject must be supplied. Who favors? The Eye (Providence) does.

The verb annuit can be either present tense or perfect tense, therefore an accurate translation of the motto is: "Providence favors our undertakings" or "Providence has favored our undertakings." (The word "our" is supplied.)

It has also been translated as: "He favors our undertakings" or "He has prospered our endeavors."

just under this phrase is a representation of the Eye of Providence, which may be understood as the all-seeing eye of God. here's a quote from Ben Franklin- notice he uses the word 'faith'

"If it had not been for the justice of our cause, and the consequent interposition of Providence, in which we had faith, we must have been ruined." – Ben Franklin (to William Strahan), 1784

from George Washington-

"The many remarkable interpositions of the divine government, in the hours of our deepest distress and darkness, have been too luminous to suffer me to doubt the happy issue of the present contest." (March 26, 1781)

"The Commander in Chief earnestly recommends that the troops not on duty should universally attend with that seriousness of Deportment and gratitude of Heart which the recognition of such reiterated and astonishing interpositions of Providence demand of us." (October 20, 1781)

and a last word from Ben Franklin- his original idea for the Great Seal-





just for evidence regarding the religion of the Founders. Deism is NOT atheism as some would wish.

and BTW- waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles riot was executing God's will according to Ben