Everyone is scared, everyone has guns.

[Vedubin01]

Tim McVey used diesel fuel and fertilizer in a rental moving truck.

9/11 attackers used box cutters and planes...

[mrsleeve]

Tim McVey used diesel fuel and fertilizer in a rental moving truck.

fun fact of the day.

Where McVey bought the diesel to build that, is small fuel station between Chelsea and Manchester MI not far from where I used to live. You have to be on a federally approved list to buy diesel or kero and only limited amounts at a time if you are, form this fuel station and their are pad locks on those pumps. Yup govt action to keep OKC bombing from happening again

[cale]

how many cars kill people daily in the US?

or how about DUI's?

by the way a gun has never killed anyone. People behind the guns do!

You're going to try and equate car accidents to gun crime? Poor argument IMO, it also coincides with Farbin's quite well. Edited for unnecessary drunken rudeness.

Banning a tool that has been used in a way other than prescribed will hurt more people that use them in the correct way than the same tool being used by a minority using them the wrong way.

A handgun or AR's sole use is to end human life's, it holds no other function. Both of you seem to want to ignore this fact. You cannot compare the misuse of an everyday item to that of an item who's sole function is to end human life. If that's the case, it's time to start lobotomizing the entire population so people can't cause any harm whatsoever.

9/11 attackers used box cutters and planes...

And guns did what to prevent this or the OK City bombing? You're talking about events that would have happened regardless of gun laws. The thousands of deaths attributable to gun violence cannot be dismissed so easily. There IS a readily available solution to those, at least there was. Everyone's selfishness has made that no longer an option though, good job.

[Vedubin01]

try to find pure ammonium nitrate in large quantities. The best stuff in the world to make your yard green now has been banned due to this.

[Vedubin01]

You're going to try and equate car accidents to gun crime? Get real, piss poor argument is piss poor. It also coincides with Farbin's quite well.



A handgun or AR's sole use is to end human life's, it holds no other function. Both of you seem to want to ignore this fact. You cannot compare the misuse of an everyday item to that of an item who's sole function is to end human life.

I see a DUI the same way as a gun killing... and I wish you would not speak on guns as you are completely clueless on the subject.

[cale]

Why, because I don't agree with you? Get off your fucking high horse you misinformed twat. I'm the liberal west coast hippy who could probably do a field strip and reassembly quicker than most AR owners, you don't know me personally so stick to the goddamn topic.

[mrsleeve]

A handgun or AR's sole use is to end human life's, it holds no other function. Both of you seem to want to ignore this fact. You cannot compare the misuse of an everyday item to that of an item who's sole function is to end human life.

I see it as the opposite, its sole purpose is to preserve human life and liberty. If you have one of those items, you can defend your self from someone/something that wishes to take either your life or liberty from you.

The price of freedom is always high and freedom is never free

Dose this accurately describe you cale and evandale

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. - Thomas Jefferson

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

Because this is what you seem to be advocating for

[JasonC]

A guy down the road from me was killed by an axe in the back of the head. His mentally handicap son did it (sneek attack). But yet there was guns in the house. Very odd that a gun wasn't used and could of been easily used...

[cale]

I see it as the opposite, its sole purpose is to preserve human life and liberty. If you have one of those items, you can defend your self from someone/something that wishes to take either your life or liberty from you.

The price of freedom is always high and freedom is never free

Dose this accurately describe you cale and evandale

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. - Thomas Jefferson

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

Because this is what you seem to be advocating for

If that is its purpose, why is crime at the level that it is in the US? Should it not be much lower given how many firearms there are protecting the public? You seem to be trying to make an argument which is not supported by what is actually happening, that's a little desperate IMO.

I have freedom in Canada, and it certainly isn't being upheld with a gun.

So here's a question, what is it that makes guns such a necessity in the US vs. the rest of the developed world? Why is it that with them you do not see significantly lower crime stat's compared to countries who do not rely so heavily on personal gun ownership?

[mrsleeve]

^
There are lots of UNREPORTED incidences where someone uses a firearm to deter an aggressor that are not part of the stats you are reading. In fact most go unreported because no crime is actually committed thaks to the law abiding citizen being armed .

Yeah well who is going to defend that freedom of yours when more and more is taken from you??? Think its not going to happen ............................. it will

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. - Thomas Jefferson


You have 10% our population we have cites that have more people in them than you have in entire provinces Literally...........

[cale]

I will, I fully intend to arm myself once I own my own home. I already have the shotgun picked out! I'm simply waiting it out as to not force my roommate/landlord into having a gun in his home.

That still doesn't answer my main question though. Why is the US incapable of seeing similar crime rates as other countries without their guns? I'm simply looking for your take on this, there is no definitive answer.

[mrsleeve]

is your room mate also you land lord. If not check you local laws but if its like most places in the states a landlord can not bar you from keeping a weapon in YOUR HOME while you legally occupy it.


Next look where all these mass attacks happen. PLACES WHERE GUNS ARE NOT ALLOWED SCHOOLS, MILITARY BASES ( yeah thats kinda strange huh) and the CO. fuck wit this summer bypassed several theaters closer to his home in favor of one that BARRED Concealed Carry. These people pick places where they cant be opposed until they have finished with their sinister deeds. In the 1st 3 mins generally is when they do all the damage and police response time averages what 7 mins in urban areas of this country.

If we are to ban guns and legal carry of them you essentially turn everywhere into to a place gun free zone. You know something on similar note we have banned the use of drugs for the best part of a 100 years now, please explain to me how that has stopped people from using them. Oh and this latest deal is far from the worst school massacre in US history MI circa 193X sometime a pissed off school board member sets off 2 bombs killing 38 I think.

[Farbin Kaiber]

A handgun or AR's sole use is to end human life's, it holds no other function. Both of you seem to want to ignore this fact. You cannot compare the misuse of an everyday item to that of an item who's sole function is to end human life. If that's the case, it's time to start lobotomizing the entire population so people can't cause any harm whatsoever.

I have used both handguns, and AR's to either deal with vermin in my feedstores, or to protect my livestock. I have never used either of these items you listed to "end human' lives" as you so eloquently implied.

[VinniE30]

That still doesn't answer my main question though. Why is the US incapable of seeing similar crime rates as other countries without their guns? I'm simply looking for your take on this, there is no definitive answer.

The reason could be any number of things from poverty to culture. The right to own a gun or having laws restricting gun ownership have been shown to not have a clear affect on murder. Some studies have shown that it is in fact counterproductive to ban guns to decrease murder:

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

But if your curious on how the US compares to other countries homicide rates it looks like we're somewhere in the middle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

[cale]

It's true that gun free zones do make an ideal location for a nutjob to do what he wants, but that's another price you pay with freedom. Private businesses have the right to choose whether or not they want guns on their property, and I think that's fair. It's likely for insurance purposes, but it's still a valid stance IMO.

I have used both handguns, and AR's to either deal with vermin in my feedstores, or to protect my livestock. I have never used either of these items you listed to "end human' lives" as you so eloquently implied.

Is that it's intended purpose? You and I both know it is not, you're simply rethinking how to use them and that is fine. That doesn't negate the fact that they came into existence for use on humans and that a different firearm could do the job effectively.