Let's talk about keeping the Highway Trust Fund solvent

[einhander]

Specifically, the highway/road account- it's essentially empty.

Why don't we have a phased abolition of the gas tax and instead treat roads like utilities, charging for use?

With increasing use of natural gas, hybrids, and other alternative sources for vehicular energy, taxes collected from gas will decline, further draining the account.

What say this group of intelligent and goodly people?

[Farbin Kaiber]

Obama's statements of the road funds in the bailout, and his shovel ready jobs for the infrastructure of the interstate system was a lie.


EDIT: I pay the state and federal fuel taxes at the pump, it's not my fault they pulled cash for clunkers and took a bunch of cars that were using enough gas to pay for the roads.

[mrsleeve]

Well considering that if your running an alternative fuel source the DOT likes it if you keep a log of said use send a check in quarterly in the amount of gas taxes you would paid if you were using a similar petrol powered method of transport. This is what was explained to me when I was considering making my own bio diesel.... Thia is in fact a LAW, and why you get your ass fined into the stone age if your caught with off road red dyed diesel in your fuel tank, shirking of the road use taxes. DOT loves farm auctions, live stock sales, Rodeo's and big construction projects. I have had my tank dipped by the DOT, at almost every one of those locations.

In the age of bribing people to do things with tax credits and other "insentives" much of this has likely been looked past so long as your buying/driving a green friendly car and not making your own diesel fuel out of old fryer grease for you 03 (no emissions) 800HP turbo diesel 1ton sled puller/DD that gets 4mpg and leaves a cloud of coal at every stop light......

So I take your all for a GPS Mileage logging device to be installed in every new car and retrofitted into your vintage collector quality M3?? A device that your our govt will need to get the data from annually or even quarterly? A device that would likely be able to be read wirelessly anytime you pass certain installations ??? A device that will log everywhere you have been in your car.

Didnt the FBI get slapped by the 9th a little while back about warrant-less GPS tracking of citizens??? I might have that backwards and it up held it I dont remember will have too look that one up....

Besides its the shipping/trucking industry that provides the most funding to the Hwy trust fund.

[einhander]

You and your novels.

Well considering that if your running an alternative fuel source the DOT likes it if you keep a log of said use send a check in quarterly in the amount of gas taxes you would paid if you were using a similar petrol powered method of transport. This is what was explained to me when I was considering making my own bio diesel....

Which is ludicrous, considering you're paying a tax for a service you're not using. See, abolishing the fuel tax would be a good idea...

Thia is in fact a LAW, and why you get your ass fined into the stone age if your caught with off road red dyed diesel in your fuel tank, shirking of the road use taxes. DOT loves farm auctions, live stock sales, Rodeo's and big construction projects. I have had my tank dipped by the DOT, at almost every one of those locations.

I have no idea what you're yammering on about.

In the age of bribing people to do things with tax credits and other "insentives" much of this has likely been looked past so long as your buying/driving a green friendly car and not making your own diesel fuel out of old fryer grease for you 03 (no emissions) 800HP turbo diesel 1ton sled puller/DD that gets 4mpg and leaves a cloud of coal at every stop light......

English. Motherfucker. Do. You. Speak. It?

So I take your all for a GPS Mileage logging device to be installed in every new car and retrofitted into your vintage collector quality M3?? A device that your our govt will need to get the data from annually or even quarterly? A device that would likely be able to be read wirelessly anytime you pass certain installations ??? A device that will log everywhere you have been in your car.

Of course not. There are ways around this. The government already knows what car you have, they could assign a unique code to each make and model, put it on some chip which you present when buying gas. Road tax could be collected based on some function of your car's average MPG and how much gas you're purchasing. No tracking devices necessary. Should keep the tinfoil hat militia happy, no?

Didnt the FBI get slapped by the 9th a little while back about warrant-less GPS tracking of citizens??? I might have that backwards and it up held it I dont remember will have too look that one up....

Maybe. What does that have to do with the Highway Trust Fund?

Besides its the shipping/trucking industry that provides the most funding to the Hwy trust fund.

And they're also the industries investing heavily in alternative fuels, so collections will decrease. They also use the roads more than everyone else, but ride free (see what I did there?). Why not tax them for use instead of fuel?

Sometimes I suspect you argue just because you like to argue...

[mrsleeve]

You and your novels.



Which is ludicrous, considering you're paying a tax for a service you're not using. See, abolishing the fuel tax would be a good idea...

No when your not buying fuel at retail your not paying the road use taxes. If your driving on the road your using the fucking service so there for you should be paying for it like the DOT says you should.

I have no idea what you're yammering on about.



English. Motherfucker. Do. You. Speak. It?



Of course not. There are ways around this. The government already knows what car you have, they could assign a unique code to each make and model, put it on some chip which you present when buying gas. Road tax could be collected based on some function of your car's average MPG and how much gas you're purchasing. No tracking devices necessary. Should keep the tinfoil hat militia happy, no?

Ummmm this sounds JUST like when you buy fucking gas as it is now, the more you drive the more you pay in use taxes DUHHHH. The taxes are built into the fucking price. Why do I need an additional form of documentation to buy more fuel???

Maybe. What does that have to do with the Highway Trust Fund?



And they're also the industries investing heavily in alternative fuels, so collections will decrease. They also use the roads more than everyone else, but ride free (see what I did there?). Why not tax them for use instead of fuel?

Sometimes I suspect you argue just because you like to argue...

If you dont know or understand how motor fuels are taxed or dispensed and penalties for using fuels that are not taxed for road use. then why not figure that out before you start asking stupid questions.....


Sometimes you might be right. Love you too einhorn

[einhander]

No when your not buying fuel at retail your not paying the road use taxes. If your driving on the road your using the fucking service so there for you should be paying for it like the DOT says you should.

Your reading comprehension is lousy. Astoundingly lousy.

If you're buying fuel off retail, you shouldn't have to pay taxes, either at that point or retroactively. I"m saying abolish fuel tax and instead charge people based on their road use - like a utility.

Ummmm this sounds JUST like when you buy fucking gas as it is now, the more you drive the more you pay in use taxes DUHHHH. The taxes are built into the fucking price. Why do I need an additional form of documentation to buy more fuel???

Like I said, alternative fuels and natural gas are growing. The inverse is that gasoline and diesel consumption is dropping. Americans already consume less of both than they did 10 years ago, hence the Trust Fund is losing funds. Go read what I wrote again and again until you get it through that dome of yours.

If you dont know or understand how motor fuels are taxed or dispensed and penalties for using fuels that are not taxed for road use. then why not figure that out before you start asking stupid questions.....

Honestly. You're not understanding what I'm saying. Not even a little bit.

Sometimes you might be right. Love you too einhorn

You're my boy, blue.

[mrsleeve]

Your reading comprehension is lousy. Astoundingly lousy.

If you're buying fuel off retail, you shouldn't have to pay taxes, either at that point or retroactively. I"m saying abolish fuel tax and instead charge people based on their road use - like a utility.

The reason the use tax was added to fuel was to pay for the roads. Your not supposed to drive on the roads with out paying the use tax. In general alternative energy storage media has been traditionally rare. Hence the DOT regs about logging your mileage and paying up quarterly or at least annually.

I will try and keep this simple for your urban white collar management type mind to grasp. You know all that big yellow shit they use to build stuff, and Green shit that makes all the food in the USA??? Most of that shit burns Diesel fuel diesel in general comes in 2 Colors (just dyed) Yellow (sometimes aka green) and RED. RED is for off road use only see the items listed above. Oddly enough it averages about 50cents a gallon cheaper across the country. Why is this you might ask, NO ROAD USE TAXES are charged a point of sale because its not going to be used to power something to be driven on the road. When you use some type of fuel that is not sold for the primary use of road fuel, in the DOT's eyes is the same as running RED dyed diesel fuel in 1.8td Jetta.... Hence why the DOT likes to stop where there are a lot of people that have plenty of access to red dyed fuel (you know farmers, ranchers, construction workers, ect...) where there is a high temptation fuel up off the equipment tanks. They DIP into the tank to get a sample and see if there is any red fuel in that tank. The red dye lingers for several full tanks of Yellow dyed fuel. The fines if caught are STEEP in some case 10k or more and vary by state, but the samples are sent to the fucking IRS for testing. After all tax evasion is srs biz.

Like I said, alternative fuels and natural gas are growing. The inverse is that gasoline and diesel consumption is dropping. Americans already consume less of both than they did 10 years ago, hence the Trust Fund is losing funds. Go read what I wrote again and again until you get it through that dome of yours.

IIRC CNG is use taxed at the same rate as Gas when purchased from a station that sells it, if you have a home unit, your supposed to follow the out line I have laid out above for paying fed use taxes...... The trust fund is not losing out due to alternatives just yet its losing out due to increased fuel efficiency and people using off the books fuel sources and not paying their use taxes. Ignorance of the law is not a defense for breaking it remember ....................

Also I am fairly sure that all alternative fuels sold at public infrastructure are charged the appropriate use taxes. How about we look into all the paid subsidies to the purveyors of fuels to get them to sell all this odd ball shit and maybe stop paying it out (I know some ceased in 09 though) lets not even get into the ethanol subsidy either .

Honestly. You're not understanding what I'm saying. Not even a little bit.

I get what your saying, and its fucking stupid, your wanting to fix a collection problem that does not really exist, other than a very small percentage cooking up their own bio fuels and they should be fined for not paying in when eventually caught.. A few states are charging E/V owners a flat annual fee based on average mileage a average car is driven a year and a similar type cars average fuel economy based on that distance. I think WA is one

Why not raise the use fee by a couple of pennies or maybe even a nickel. and start sending all those EV owners a fucking bill as opposed to a check for buying the fucking things

[einhander]

The reason the use tax was added to fuel was to pay for the roads. Your not supposed to drive on the roads with out paying the use tax. In general alternative energy storage media has been traditionally rare. Hence the DOT regs about logging your mileage and paying up quarterly or at least annually.

I'm talking about taxing road use, not fuel use.

I will try and keep this simple for your urban white collar management type mind to grasp. You know all that big yellow shit they use to build stuff, and Green shit that makes all the food in the USA??? Most of that shit burns Diesel fuel diesel in general comes in 2 Colors (just dyed) Yellow (sometimes aka green) and RED. RED is for off road use only see the items listed above. Oddly enough it averages about 50cents a gallon cheaper across the country. Why is this you might ask, NO ROAD USE TAXES are charged a point of sale because its not going to be used to power something to be driven on the road.

Then it isn't germane to the issue I'm talking about - the insolvency of the HTF.

When you use some type of fuel that is not sold for the primary use of road fuel, in the DOT's eyes is the same as running RED dyed diesel fuel in 1.8td Jetta.... Hence why the DOT likes to stop where there are a lot of people that have plenty of access to red dyed fuel (you know farmers, ranchers, construction workers, ect...) where there is a high temptation fuel up off the equipment tanks. They DIP into the tank to get a sample and see if there is any red fuel in that tank. The red dye lingers for several full tanks of Yellow dyed fuel. The fines if caught are STEEP in some case 10k or more and vary by state, but the samples are sent to the fucking IRS for testing. After all tax evasion is srs biz.

I honestly don't care about those people. They shouldn't be taxed on fuel, but on their use of public roads.

IIRC CNG is use taxed at the same rate as Gas when purchased from a station that sells it, if you have a home unit, your supposed to follow the out line I have laid out above for paying fed use taxes...... The trust fund is not losing out due to alternatives just yet its losing out due to increased fuel efficiency and people using off the books fuel sources and not paying their use taxes. Ignorance of the law is not a defense for breaking it remember ....................

Yes, exactly. That's why I suggest taxing peoples' use of roads, not fuel. You drive x miles, you pay Y cents per mile. I agree that GPS is a lousy idea, but there has to be another mechanism.

Also I am fairly sure that all alternative fuels sold at public infrastructure are charged the appropriate use taxes. How about we look into all the paid subsidies to the purveyors of fuels to get them to sell all this odd ball shit and maybe stop paying it out (I know some ceased in 09 though) lets not even get into the ethanol subsidy either

Yes.

I get what your saying, and its fucking stupid, your wanting to fix a collection problem that does not really exist, other than a very small percentage cooking up their own bio fuels and they should be fined for not paying in when eventually caught.. A few states are charging E/V owners a flat annual fee based on average mileage a average car is driven a year and a similar type cars average fuel economy based on that distance. I think WA is one

Why not raise the use fee by a couple of pennies or maybe even a nickel. and start sending all those EV owners a fucking bill as opposed to a check for buying the fucking things

The problem does exist, look: http://www.dot.gov/highway-trust-fund-ticker

No fucking money.

Hicks cooking up their own fuel is not bankrupting the HTF. Decreased revenues from increased fuel efficiency is - you just pointed that out. I said the gas tax should be gradually eliminated and people should be taxed on their use of public roads - it's the fairest way. If you're using your own cocked up brew in your Chevy Silverado carrying some dead deer and dragging some illegals on a rope, you shouldn't be charged for the fuel. If carrying your load on a public road, you should be taxed based on mile driven.

You're not going to feasibly raise taxes, why not charge for use of public infrastructure based on the intensity/duration of that use?

I'm not talking about the tax carriers pay on fuel use and heavy highway (55k lbs) use.

Take two people, one in an El Dorado and one in a Prius. They both drive 1000 miles. The cholo in the El Dorado is going to have to pay more - via gas tax - to drive the same distance. The do-gooder in the Prius is free-riding on public infrastructure because he's paying less in gas tax. The Prius filled up two times to the El Dorado's five times. They should be taxed on miles driven after the fact, not at the gas pump.

[mrsleeve]

I'm talking about taxing road use, not fuel use.

When you buy fucking fuel your going to use it by and large for hauling your ass form point A to point B. What better collection method is there then when you buy the shit.... How many people do you know that keep the receipts to write off Lawn mower and weed wacker fuel, or gas for the ATV, snow blower, power washer or rototiller???? Not even I am that petty about paying taxes

Then it isn't germane to the issue I'm talking about - the insolvency of the HTF.

I know that it was to help illustrate a point, you seem to have a hard time grasping about the level and types of uses and fuels are taxed and the penlites for gaming that system.

Yes, exactly. That's why I suggest taxing peoples' use of roads, not fuel. You drive x miles, you pay Y cents per mile. I agree that GPS is a lousy idea, but there has to be another mechanism.

In general driving more = buying more fuel = paying more tax DURRRRR whats so hard about this concept for you. If you have a bigger ass SUV (that some make the claim hurts the road more) you piss poor fuel economy compared to your earth loving ecco car. Thus the people using the road more and using heavier modes of transit are ALREADY PAYING MORE for using the utility more.....

The problem does exist, look: http://www.dot.gov/highway-trust-fund-ticker

No fucking money.

Yeah no shit I get that, I just see you trying to fix a problem that does not really exist (seems to be a common theme with you) COLLECTION of the money. Not the amount of money....... You want to be charged by the mile when you are already paying by the mile unless you have a buddy that lets you fill off the tank farm at the refinery. Or does your car run unicorn piss, do you really have herd of unicorns penned up somewhere, if you do I want to visit......

Seems last year alone 800m federal dollars were diverted from HWY spending to fucking Bike paths. Roads are expensive but 800m fixes and buys a lot of general maintenance.

http://blog.heritage.org/2014/04/11/steering-transportation-policy-empower-people-states-washington/

Yet the federal government is all too eager to tell local governments where, what, and how to build. Last year federal lawmakers diverted some $800 million in federal gas taxes from the Highway Trust Fund (HTF) to the states “for bicycle and walking paths, sidewalks, community preservation initiatives, and other so-called transportation alternatives,

while this is about a decade old and highlights more of a state and local issue why is only about 1/3 of taxation for transportation infrastructure being used for it. The rest being diverted into general spending funds ???

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/14/1494.asp

Hicks cooking up their own fuel is not bankrupting the HTF. Decreased revenues from increased fuel efficiency is - you just pointed that out. I said the gas tax should be gradually eliminated and people should be taxed on their use of public roads - it's the fairest way. If you're using your own cocked up brew in your Chevy Silverado carrying some dead deer and dragging some illegals on a rope, you shouldn't be charged for the fuel. If carrying your load on a public road, you should be taxed based on mile driven.

Then you have to some how prove your off the road, and GPS would be about the only way to do this. Not many people use a car or truck for off road uses, and most that do only use a few gallons of fuel a year for such purposes. Those farmers that do use their shit off highway more than most, in many states get special plates or stickers to use red dyed fuel or a tax credit for the taxes on gas for fuel used in farming operations with in a given distance of the property. The way it is, most everyone is overpaying a little bit, and in theory that should make up for those that skirt the system.

.You're not going to feasibly raise taxes, why not charge for use of public infrastructure based on the intensity/duration of that use?

why not we do it all the time on hidden taxes, most people dont even know they are paying taxes on gas at the pump other than maybe a sales tax. Which is assessed on top of the use taxes, nothing like paying taxes on paying taxes (shit did I just make an exhibit joke??? though its not that funny ). A nickel a gallon is not going to phase anyone anymore and when figured up is going to cost the average driver 30 bucks more a year or about 57 cents a week yup everyone is going to notice that and its even going to break all the minimum wage employees too

Take two people, one in an El Dorado and one in a Prius. They both drive 1000 miles. The cholo in the El Dorado is going to have to pay more - via gas tax - to drive the same distance. The do-gooder in the Prius is free-riding on public infrastructure because he's paying less in gas tax. The Prius filled up two times to the El Dorado's five times. They should be taxed on miles driven after the fact, not at the gas pump.

Eldo is old and heavy, and the current taxation system is based on that type of ride. Like I said modernize the tax rating system, for current CAFE standards and send those do-gooders in E/V's and other electric based hybrids a bill rather than a tax credit.

Its my choice to drive a old POS with a 350 in it that gets 14mpg, I could chose to drive a old Honda that is the same age and basically costs about the same to buy but gets 28-30mpg and save myself about 1/2 my use taxes and cheaper to operate in general. I dont want to drive a little shit box its my choice to buy and drive the bigger thirstier car, here you are again trying to insulate people from their own choices again with more bureaucratic govt intrusion into our lives...

Funfact: Why does the govt make 3 times more money on the petroleum industry than the industry it self, we could just stop putting all that money in the general funds and divert it to say the DOT to fix the roads..... maybe

http://taxfoundation.org/article/oil-company-profits-and-tax-collections-does-us-need-new-windfall-profits-tax

that over the past 25 years, oil companies directly paid or remitted more than $2.2 trillion in taxes, after adjusting for inflation, to federal and state governments—including excise taxes, royalty payments and state and federal corporate income taxes. That amounts to more than three times what they earned in profits during the same period, according to the latest numbers from the Bureau of Economic Analysis and U.S. Department of Energy.

[Hooffenstein HD]

I agree with einhander in theory but mrsleeve in practice.

Taxing miles rather than fuel is a good idea and makes sense but implementation could be rather troublesome.

Most people would object to the idea of a traffic camera on every street corner, or GPS devices being installed in their vehicles and a track your own miles and report to the government approach leaves a lot up to the honesty of the individual.

[einhander]

When you buy fucking fuel your going to use it by and large for hauling your ass form point A to point B. What better collection method is there then when you buy the shit.... How many people do you know that keep the receipts to write off Lawn mower and weed wacker fuel, or gas for the ATV, snow blower, power washer or rototiller???? Not even I am that petty about paying taxes.

Sleeve, read what I'm writing here: I'M TALKING ABOUT TAXING DRIVERS OF AUTOMOBILES FOR THEIR USE OF PUBLIC ROADS BASED ON THE MILES THEY DRIVE.

I know that it was to help illustrate a point, you seem to have a hard time grasping about the level and types of uses and fuels are taxed and the penlites for gaming that system.

Actually, I don't. You're simply confusing what I'm writing with your need to be expert of all things ever written on the P&R forum. I'm speaking about one simple concept and you're conflating it with snow blowers, rodeos, and the DOT hassling hillbillies.

In general driving more = buying more fuel = paying more tax DURRRRR whats so hard about this concept for you.

I said that, goddamnit. Read what I wrote.

If you have a bigger ass SUV (that some make the claim hurts the road more) you piss poor fuel economy compared to your earth loving ecco car. Thus the people using the road more and using heavier modes of transit are ALREADY PAYING MORE for using the utility more.....

The asshole driving the SUV 100 miles is paying more in tax than the asshole driving 100 miles in his Chevy Aveo. That's not fair.

Yeah no shit I get that, I just see you trying to fix a problem that does not really exist (seems to be a common theme with you) COLLECTION of the money. Not the amount of money....... You want to be charged by the mile when you are already paying by the mile unless you have a buddy that lets you fill off the tank farm at the refinery. Or does your car run unicorn piss, do you really have herd of unicorns penned up somewhere, if you do I want to visit......

You. Cannot. Read.

I said abolish the tax at the pump. Tax on miles driven. How? I don't know, throw out an idea.

Seems last year alone 800m federal dollars were diverted from HWY spending to fucking Bike paths. Roads are expensive but 800m fixes and buys a lot of general maintenance.

http://blog.heritage.org/2014/04/11/steering-transportation-policy-empower-people-states-washington/

You want to rage about bike paths? Go start your own thread.

Then you have to some how prove your off the road, and GPS would be about the only way to do this. Not many people use a car or truck for off road uses, and most that do only use a few gallons of fuel a year for such purposes. Those farmers that do use their shit off highway more than most, in many states get special plates or stickers to use red dyed fuel or a tax credit for the taxes on gas for fuel used in farming operations with in a given distance of the property. The way it is, most everyone is overpaying a little bit, and in theory that should make up for those that skirt the system.

You don't need GPS. You could assign some sort of acceptable rate to those whose trucks are used for off-road duties.

why not we do it all the time on hidden taxes, most people dont even know they are paying taxes on gas at the pump other than maybe a sales tax. Which is assessed on top of the use taxes, nothing like paying taxes on paying taxes (shit did I just make an exhibit joke??? though its not that funny ). A nickel a gallon is not going to phase anyone anymore and when figured up is going to cost the average driver 30 bucks more a year or about 57 cents a month yup everyone is going to notice that

Mr Sleeve is calling for raising taxes. Look at this, everyone. Good idea, though.

Gas taxes aren't hidden. They've been the same for decades. They're even on the pump at gas stations in civilized parts of America.

Eldo is old and heavy, and the current taxation system is based on that type of ride. Like I said modernize the tax rating system, for current CAFE standards and send those do-gooders in E/V's and other electric based hybrids a bill rather than a tax credit.

Won't happen, but a good idea. Still, you're not doing anything about discriminatory rates of taxation through gasoline purchases and road use.

Its my choice to drive a old POS with a 350 in it that gets 14mpg, I could chose to drive a old Honda that is the same age and basically costs about the same to buy but gets 28-30mpg and save myself about 1/2 my use taxes and cheaper to operate in general. I dont want to drive a little shit box its my choice to buy and drive the bigger thirstier car, here you are again trying to insulate people from their own choices again with more bureaucratic govt intrusion into our lives...

No I'm not. I'm trying to make the shit box owner pay the same for his use of roads as you pay while prowling in your ChiMo truck. He's buying less gas to travel than you. He's paying less tax than you. He's banging your wife while you're asleep. I'm looking out for the little guy.

Tax .01 for every mile driven. Give, say, 40 miles grace, and cap it at 250 miles or so or any other arbitrary number. Tell me how that isn't fair.

Funfact: Why does the govt make 3 times more money on the petroleum industry than the industry it self, we could just stop putting all that money in the general funds and divert it to say the DOT to fix the roads..... maybe

http://taxfoundation.org/article/oil-company-profits-and-tax-collections-does-us-need-new-windfall-profits-tax

Yes, and while we're at it let's stop making exploration costs write offs and use that money for the same thing.

[einhander]

Today is the day Einhander argued to abolish an entire tax regime and Mr Sleeve argued to not only keep it, but raise its rates.

My mind is explode.

[z31maniac]

Once a year you run by the DMV and they look at your Odometer.

Like when you renew your tag every year.

Jesus guys, that was fucking difficult.

[einhander]

Hold on, Sleeve is going to come up in here and tell us some folksy wisdom about getting your car registered and how it's an intrusive overreach into our lives.

[evandael]

Once a year you run by the DMV and they look at your Odometer.

Like when you renew your tag every year.

Jesus guys, that was fucking difficult.

I've thought this too. Seems easy and logical. The only concern is for people who live on the border of a state, but drive predominately on the adjacent state's roadways.

Unless it went to a federal pool that was then distributed to states based on some kind of calculation of total road miles, population, weather considerations, infrastructure issues (states with lots of bridges vs. states with none), and so on. But that presents another opportunity for corruption and mishandling of funds.