Let's talk about keeping the Highway Trust Fund solvent

[Hooffenstein HD]

Once a year you run by the DMV and they look at your Odometer.

Like when you renew your tag every year.

Jesus guys, that was fucking difficult.

What if you drive your car on private land though?

[BraveUlysses]

Once a year you run by the DMV and they look at your Odometer.

Like when you renew your tag every year.

Jesus guys, that was fucking difficult.

hey, at least half of all e30 owners would end up paying nothing due to our shitty odometers! garagistic sales are plummeting!

[Farbin Kaiber]

Holy shit, I cannot understand how einhander does not understand the issue at hand is that they collect the tax for using the roads by fuel consumption already. Why would we create another bureaucratic mess?

[BraveUlysses]

Holy shit, I cannot understand how poor your reading comprehension is.

He's not contesting that the taxes are currently collected per gallon of fuel but is suggesting a different method, which accounts for miles driven on public roads for all vehicles, not just gas and diesel powered ones.

I feel like it would be too invasive on privacy to make it worthwhile.

[nando]

I drive my car out of the country a lot. odo would punish me as well.

but still probably more fair than the gas tax. I don't really like the idea of toll highways either - just another way for private companies to leach onto everyone's lives.

[profbooty]

The trucking industry allready pays by the mile. This is why truckers keep logs (and provide an outsized portion of the highway fund because their vehicles do cause more damage to the roads due to much higher weight).

It is fairly trivial to implement a similiar system for non-commercial drivers as part of filing federal income taxes. With respect to state and local taxes this would be far more challenging, though an alternative would be to increase registration fees, which is what Virginia did for hybrids.

[profbooty]

I drive my car out of the country a lot. odo would punish me as well.

but still probably more fair than the gas tax. I don't really like the idea of toll highways either - just another way for private companies to leach onto everyone's lives.

There are ways around this. If you buy fuel for off road consumption (for example for your lawn mower, for race track etc), you can file paperwork to get your gas tax money back. I am unsure if this applies for farm equipment, but it could be a non-trivial refund amount for tractors, combines etc.

[ST1G]

Didnt the FBI get slapped by the 9th a little while back about warrant-less GPS tracking of citizens??? I might have that backwards and it up held it I dont remember will have too look that one up....

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/can-cops-legally-fire-gps-bullets-at-fleeing-cars-to-track-suspects/

[nando]

There are ways around this. If you buy fuel for off road consumption (for example for your lawn mower, for race track etc), you can file paperwork to get your gas tax money back. I am unsure if this applies for farm equipment, but it could be a non-trivial refund amount for tractors, combines etc.

I'm pretty sure I can't put red dye fuel in my E30 when I cross the border to Canada on the weekend. :p

[mrsleeve]

^
You cant do that here either, unless you have a M21 powered IX, M20's dont like diesel fuel very much. ;) To make the case though, it does not matter where you bought the fuel you get caught with red fuel in your tank, on a public road way. Your paying a big fine (some places its bigger and more punitive than others I think WA fines by the amount ALL your registered vehicles can store by the gallon, yes even your gas powered units and if you have aux/rv/drag up tank in your truck you get that added in as well.) . and the IRS is now going to haunt you for a while

Today is the day Einhander argued to abolish an entire tax regime and Mr Sleeve argued to not only keep it, but raise its rates.

My mind is explode.

Yeah I noticed this as well, sometimes you just have to settle for the lesser of 2 evils, and maybe modernize said evil once in a while, to keep something far worse at bay.

Hold on, Sleeve is going to come up in here and tell us some folksy wisdom about getting your car registered and how it's an intrusive overreach into our lives.

I dont know about you but I renew my shit on the ol internetz generally from a location about 2200+ miles away from home and about 1800 miles from the my nearest state DMV location. DO I now have to get another states involved in checking into my mileage usages, and since I am so far away what percentage do the other states get of that fee ???? AS it now I likely bought fuel in that state when I crossed though it, so there for they got some use taxes from me, for passing though, this is not going to happen with out LOTS of state cooperation and federal oversight and alphabet agency interactions from ALL levels of governance, and you thought the Obama Care website and state exchanges went poorly when all new infrastructure had to be created for a similar purpose.

Unless it went to a federal pool that was then distributed to states based on some kind of calculation of total road miles, population, weather considerations, infrastructure issues (states with lots of bridges vs. states with none), and so on. But that presents another opportunity for corruption and mishandling of funds.

This pool you speak of already exist's and has since the beginning. some states receive more back than they pay to feds for roads, generally lower population states, than some of the more populace states. Its not a bad system, but when you combine it with an eariler link I posted showing that most states squander their use taxes on fuel and registrations into the general funds to be spent on what ever they like as opposed to roads. then you have a situation where all the shit falling apart anyway

Holy shit, I cannot understand how poor your reading comprehension is.

He's not contesting that the taxes are currently collected per gallon of fuel but is suggesting a different method, which accounts for miles driven on public roads for all vehicles, not just gas and diesel powered ones.

I feel like it would be too invasive on privacy to make it worthwhile.

I have covered this already, if your buying alternative fuels at a retail facility intended for highway use, your already charged the appropriate use taxes at point of sale. Only a hand full of states are charging E/V drivers annually for average estimates for use fees.....

There are ways around this. If you buy fuel for off road consumption (for example for your lawn mower, for race track etc), you can file paperwork to get your gas tax money back. I am unsure if this applies for farm equipment, but it could be a non-trivial refund amount for tractors, combines etc.

Yes there is protocol for that and I have covered that in some what greater detail earlier in this thread.

[ST1G]

The trucking industry allready pays by the mile. This is why truckers keep logs (and provide an outsized portion of the highway fund because their vehicles do cause more damage to the roads due to much higher weight).

It is fairly trivial to implement a similiar system for non-commercial drivers as part of filing federal income taxes. With respect to state and local taxes this would be far more challenging, though an alternative would be to increase registration fees, which is what Virginia did for hybrids.

I have a friend who works at ITD. She says that on freeways cars are negligible weight because of the weight of semi trucks.

[nando]

maybe but we still benefit from the use of highways. the trucks use them more, but that doesn't mean everyone that uses them shouldn't contribute.

[profbooty]

I have a friend who works at ITD. She says that on freeways cars are negligible weight because of the weight of semi trucks.

Yes, that is absolutely true. The majority of the damage is caused by trucks, thats why they pay a larger share despite fewer miles traveled. A tractor trailer loaded down with 80,000 lbs does considerably more damage than a 5,000lbs SUV.

It is interesting to note that new trucking regulations have reduced the number of hours that long haul truckers are allowed to travel in a day due to new safety regulations. I would be curious to see how much this has affected tax revenues, as it has effected trucker salaries (many get paid by miles traveled not by the hour).

[mrsleeve]

Nando

Unless your like enhorn and have the uber rare unicorn piss powered M3, or cooking up your own home brew bio fuels from old fryer grease, or have built a wood gasafier (sp??) and run your old taco on wood gas. The only main stream production cars that are not paying use taxes in most states are E/V's. The winds are changing on that in the last couple of years. If your buying any alternative fuels at a retail filling location then your paying the taxes.

Those guys that do run with odd ball fueling set ups when caught will get fined for using it just like if they had red dye fuel in their jetta. This is why there are procedures for tracking your fuel consumption and sending in a check for the appropriate use tax amounts to state and feds and keeping that proof in the rig with the unconventional fuel source.

Most people dont even know there is use taxes on their retail motor fuel, so when they switch to a "home made" unconventional fuel source they have no idea they are breaking the laws. In a lot of places cops and DOT have been really cracking down on diesel's that smell like french fries to get them for non road use dyed fuel. No log, no cancelled check no attempt to keep any such records, here have a wonderful fine errrr I mean day

[profbooty]

I'm pretty sure I can't put red dye fuel in my E30 when I cross the border to Canada on the weekend. :p

I was referring to normal gas actually, and not as a means of tack avoidance. A buddy of mine runs a long haul trucking company out of New Hampshire, I'll probably inqure as to how they handle road taxes for loads shipped to/from canada.