Charlie Hebdo

[E30 Wagen]

Come on, read my comment; was it centered on me and my wants? No.

My point is that these condemnations seem more like knee-jerk responses than meaningful apologies on behalf of peaceful Muslims. I get this feeling they're simply agreeing that, yes, killing people is bad and we condemn that. But the big problem here is that the ideologies of Islam are at the root of these violent outbursts and the cause of suffering in the middle east. There needs to be a greater sense of shame behind these condemnations, some kind of acknowledgment that Islamism is a contributor of disruption in the middle east, and that, as a Muslim leader, they've had enough of these extremists causing havoc and death. Instead it seems like all we should expect is more of the same. There remains this unspoken sentiment of "You asked for it. What do you want me to do about it?" Maybe that's not the case at all, but for people like me who don't have much time to listen to NPR or other news, the voices of Islam that I hear are empty.

Now, if an e30 driver got pissed off by some stickers on the back of an Integra and started running every Integra he saw straight into oncoming semi trucks, then the analogy might work. We're talking about murder, not failing to signal. EDIT: Also, I'm not an e30 leader, am I?

[BraveUlysses]

No, it's not because your original comment is pretty terrible--how do you quantify when there's been enough condemnation by islamic leaders to appease you? Its nothing more than empty criticism

[E30 Wagen]

The other day someone driving an E30 cut in front of me without using his turn signal. The thing I'd like to know is what are you going to do to keep that kind of shit from happening again?

Not sure if serious...

If you are serious, that has got to be the worst analogy ever.

[smooth]

But I think that what we want to see from Islamic leaders is more than condemnation for the murders. We don't want to hear them blame extremism. We want them to say that they are going to figure out a way to keep this shit from happening again.

The other day someone driving an E30 cut in front of me without using his turn signal. The thing I'd like to know is what are you going to do to keep that kind of shit from happening again?

[95BMWIC]

Hate to say it - I wasn't shocked..

Where (and when) I grew up - if you hurled enough insults - you could expect to get a punch in the mouth..

Doesn't make it right either...

Freedom of speech is actually pretty narrow freedom here in the US - Not all speech is protected (slander, incitement) and not all speech is tolerated (hate speech).

As far as a warning to the magazine - they did expect the worse (murder) - for their satirical drawings - they had been attacked before.. (in 2011).

Doesn't make the violence justified, but it seems to me the magazine had to know the risks...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/07/europe...rsy/index.html

[Farbin Kaiber]

And the irony of it all is they make more freedom of expression martyrs. I'm guessing it wasn't their goal, but they did. I know more people will stand up. I guessing more will be taken down, then even more, if not all will stand up.

[E30 Wagen]

I agree with some of what freeride53 is saying. Openly insulting a religion that harbors violent extremists is a pretty dumb thing to do. I wouldn't say that it is the wrong thing to do, only that it is dangerous. Even if the cartoonists have the law on their side, that law is powerless against the fervor of Islamic belief. If the cartoonists believe their expression is merited by some kind of cultural hierarchy, then I would even have to say it's somewhat arrogant of them to brazenly dismiss a belief system that billions of people live by. They have now paid for it with their lives, and for what?

But I think that what we want to see from Islamic leaders is more than condemnation for the murders. We don't want to hear them blame extremism. We want them to say that they are going to figure out a way to keep this shit from happening again.

[freeride53]

I can see what you're saying. Sort of like if I were to walk alone through an area with a lot of crime, and start counting out a stack of hundreds, should I really be surprised if I get mugged? No, not really, and if I have a decent sense of self preservation, I should consider this before either going through such an area, or counting my money. But it shouldn't be that way to begin with, which is the problem. Laws only apply to those who respect laws.

And for the record, from what I've read, some of the people at Charlie Hebdo were expecting feedback, sooner or later.

As for respect for the prophet? Nope. They think he should be worshiped (or whatever it is they think). I don't. I think their religion is fucking stupid, and although I have to respect their right to practice it, I don't have to respect the actual religion. However, while we have religious freedom in America, if practicing your religion involves infringing on others rights, IMO, you lose your right to practice freely.

I think the problem is that we have somehow gotten to a point where people think that they have the right to not be offended. But they don't. Kind of the opposite really, I am well within my rights to offend anyone. They might think I'm a dick, but that's their problem. As far as I know, I can't slander anyone, and I can't incite violence. Beyond that, legally, I can say anything I please.

I agree with you the most. I can see where you are coming from as well.

[rturbo 930]

I respect the notion of free-speech. But on the streets, not everyone accepts the notion of free-speech, get what I'm saying?

I can see what you're saying. Sort of like if I were to walk alone through an area with a lot of crime, and start counting out a stack of hundreds, should I really be surprised if I get mugged? No, not really, and if I have a decent sense of self preservation, I should consider this before either going through such an area, or counting my money. But it shouldn't be that way to begin with, which is the problem. Laws only apply to those who respect laws.

And for the record, from what I've read, some of the people at Charlie Hebdo were expecting feedback, sooner or later.

As for respect for the prophet? Nope. They think he should be worshiped (or whatever it is they think). I don't. I think their religion is fucking stupid, and although I have to respect their right to practice it, I don't have to respect the actual religion. However, while we have religious freedom in America, if practicing your religion involves infringing on others rights, IMO, you lose your right to practice freely.

I think the problem is that we have somehow gotten to a point where people think that they have the right to not be offended. But they don't. Kind of the opposite really, I am well within my rights to offend anyone. They might think I'm a dick, but that's their problem. As far as I know, I can't slander anyone, and I can't incite violence. Beyond that, legally, I can say anything I please.

[freeride53]

Not everyone deserves respect

Agreed. Wahabbi extremists/al-qaeda/ISIS certainly do not.

The respect should be aimed at the hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world who are decent citizens and deserving humans.

[nando]

Not everyone deserves respect

[freeride53]

free speech is the law. heinous religious acts are not.

Correct you are. But just curious, why do you keep repeating yourself and or obvious facts? I'm well-versed on the laws of most modern Western societies.

You, amongst others are being redundant and skipping away the points at which you are criticizing my statements.

I am not disputing any laws here. I'm just expressing opinions.

I am just expressing my own opinions here, which are to respect everyone.
Would you go out and deny the holocaust? No, that's illegal in Western Europe. Just cause a lot of countries in the Mid East and elsewhere can be religiously-intolerant, is it alright for the people of the West to do be the same?

[nando]

I respect the notion of free-speech. But on the streets, not everyone accepts the notion of free-speech, get what I'm saying?

free speech is the law. heinous religious acts are not.

[freeride53]

why not? you're an adult and capable of critical thinking.

Yes I am thank you. I respect all religions. I come from a multi-faith background.
Do I believe in everything they say? No.

I just don't think it is my place to argue with them, or try to convince them otherwise.

Their faith, their business.

I respect everyone, regardless of their race, faith, sexuality.
I don't make fun of them nor do I intentionally target their sacred beliefs.

The terrorist attacks in France a couple of weeks ago were completely heinous attacks against innocent people, and nothing to do with my point.

[decay]

That's not for me to decide!

why not? you're an adult and capable of critical thinking.