Trump Thread 2.0

[z31maniac]

a hundredth of the holocaust is still 120,000 people though

You apparently missed the point as well.

America has not created Nazi death camps. The immigrant situation is terrible, but comparing it to genocide isn't even anything approaching reality.

[decay]

You apparently missed the point as well.

America has not created Nazi death camps. The immigrant situation is terrible, but comparing it to genocide isn't even anything approaching reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[4]

[cale]

Once again intent escapes you, hell it's even in the text you've provided.

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

There is no intent to destroy anyone, the intent is to detain and deal with anyone who shouldn't be in your country. Children are indeed being separated as an act of a deterrence, the effectiveness and morality of which can be questioned, but the categorization of that action is not.

Something something forest through trees.

[decay]

well while we're being patronizing, how do you claim to know the intent of people in power in another country?

not that your answer actually matters, because apparently you also missed the intent of the genocide commission in the first place; recognizing the mechanisms via which it is committed.

[decay]

...and now that i've had that little rant at your attitude out of the way, it's the impact of the actions that matters, not the intent.

[z31maniac]

a hundredth of the holocaust is still 120,000 people though

So have 120,000 people been sent into gas chambers to be murdered on the border?

Where are these gas chambers exactly?

[roguetoaster]

...and now that i've had that little rant at your attitude out of the way, it's the impact of the actions that matters, not the intent.

Legally speaking, intent is generally more important than a result. Imagine the difference between running over a person who darted out from between parked cars (not in CA of course), and intentionally running someone over with your car.

As far as a determination of intent, we generally gather that from a group consensus, and I suspect the group consensus would agree that detention facilities and their conditions are wrong, there is in actuality no intent to cause those people to be killed.

[z31maniac]

a hundredth of the holocaust is still 120,000 people though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Where are the death camps? Where are American Military Forces sending people to die, in a genocide? We all know and admit the situations at the camps suck, but it's not a strategically carried military campaign against immigrants.


Keep up this ridiculous narrative, then wonder why the dipshit in the office now, will win again.

On the spectrum, Reeeee, I don't understand how some of you don't get this.

[cale]

well while we're being patronizing, how do you claim to know the intent of people in power in another country?

I don't, a little bit of rational thought must be given and I think occam's razor plays a role too. Is it more likely that Trump is using this tactic as a means to enforce border effectiveness, or is it more likely that it's a guise for the extermination of a particular race?

and now that i've had that little rant at your attitude out of the way, it's the impact of the actions that matters, not the intent.

I could be convinced to agree with this if the impact truly lived up to the claims that are being presented here. You've time and time again likened Trumps administration to the Third Reich, when in fact nothing they have done has even come close to this. The intent is in fact more relevant because until there is evidence to suggest we're going to evolve into more and more extreme measures (up to and including extermination), there is no reason to suggest it is going beyond this. Your argument looses all traction for "ermagherd holocaust" when it doesn't evolve into anything close to it, which it has not. If we know the intent we know how far things are going to go relatively speaking, and so far the intent is quite clear.

[decay]

Legally speaking, intent is generally more important than a result. Imagine the difference between running over a person who darted out from between parked cars (not in CA of course), and intentionally running someone over with your car.

As far as a determination of intent, we generally gather that from a group consensus, and I suspect the group consensus would agree that detention facilities and their conditions are wrong, there is in actuality no intent to cause those people to be killed.

"negligent homicide" is a crime you can be charged with.

[CarpHunter]

^When you faux intellectuals quit trying to claim there is something even 1/100th the equivalent of the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi's happening on American soil?

Do you not know your own countries history? Not only has your country committed an act 1/100th of the holocaust, you put the nazi's record to shame. Or did you forget about the native americans? In fact, you were able to do something they couldn't. You successfully eradicated and erased entire native cultures from history. You guys called it "manifest destiny".

Here's a fun fact, the large majority of nazi policy pertaining to Jews was based off America's own racial policies. Their sterilization policy was directly taken from California's. Hitler spoke at great length of his admiration for american racial policies, especially your ability to feign innocence in the face of mass death.

Your history is filled with examples of things that make the nazi's look like boy scouts. All countries are capable of atrocities, america is no different, no better, and not special in that regard. So don't act like it can't go that way, cause it has on multiple occasions.

Kinda proved my point by making up a quote entirely. Like I said include the whole quote, you went ahead and made up your own. That seems to be a theme these days, Lie about someone and then attack the very lie you made up. The public is on to it. Trump does enough stupid shit, there is no need for the media at large to twist and lie about him. They are literally digging their own graves. Just put the whole quote out by itself, people don’t need you or the pundits to figure what he said for them.

That is the whole quote, i did not edit any of it. Don't accuse me of something I clearly didn't do. Feel free to word check it. If your referring to your second statement of the post, or second paragraph, well that would be a separate quote. That's why you separated them, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpHunter View Post
Is it before they build the ovens? Or when their shoveling out the ashes? Cause it's this type of acquiescence that gives rise to tyrants and dictators.
There it is....

There what is? How bout answering the question? This isn't an accusatory question, it's an honest one. Remember hitler was elected, there was no power grab. Same with stalin, pol pot, mao, ect. Americans seem to think bad shit hasn't, won't, or can't happen simply because your america. Where do you guys draw the line? Is it only once shit goes south that you should speak out? This isn't partisan, extreme right wing ideology doesn't care if you call it Democrat or republican. Republicans went from the party of Lincoln to the party of the KKK and neo nazi's.

Another point to remember is they didn't start with gassing the Jews. It started with immigration restrictions (again based off american policy, mainly the chinese exclusion act), then it went to putting them in concentration camps (which americans have done to the chinese, japanese, latino, german, Italians). Then slave labor, and finally death camps. After year's of the german population going along with it, or not speaking up. And yes, what you're currently doing at the border are infact concentration camps, by the very definition of the word. Doesn't matter if you don't wanna admit that, or call them that, that's what they are. Period.

My point with that statement is you need to choose how far you're willing to let things go. How much are you willing to lower the bar, how much will you let slide? I'm not saying trump will turn into hitler. I'm saying your republican party is veering more and more to the dark and authoritarian aspects of right wing ideology. The parts that gave rise to histories sins. It's in your hands, it's your choice. If things go down a terrible path, you have no one to blame but yourselves. No one outside your country talks about you in terms of dem or rep, it's simply america. If things truly go down a dark path, all of america will get the blame, the world doesn't care about your hand wringing "it wasn't me, it was them" bullshit. You'll all be held responsible. Just as the germans were. All germans were nazi's in America's eyes. Didn't matter if they helped or stood by and did nothing. Americans will be held the same in the world's eyes.

[cale]

"negligent homicide" is a crime you can be charged with.

Moving the goalposts. No one is arguing both can't be wrong, but one is a significantly greater atrocity which is fueled by intent to do harm.

[decay]

Where are the death camps? Where are American Military Forces sending people to die, in a genocide? We all know and admit the situations at the camps suck, but it's not a strategically carried military campaign against immigrants.


Keep up this ridiculous narrative, then wonder why the dipshit in the office now, will win again.

On the spectrum, Reeeee, I don't understand how some of you don't get this.

one last time:

it doesn't have to be a "death camp" to satisfy the requirement of "concentration camp". the two are not the same.

the holocaust is one example of genocide. one. it doesn't have to look EXACTLY LIKE WHAT THE NAZIS DID to satisfy that definition either.

you "don't understand how we don't get this" because you're the one making the erroneous conflation.

[decay]

Moving the goalposts. No one is arguing both can't be wrong, but one is a significantly greater atrocity which is fueled by intent to do harm.

do you consider your country's treatment its of indigenous peoples to be genocide?

(hint: you should)

i mean, i'm sure their intent was really noble when they took children away from their families for re-education; note that this fits the same definition of genocide i gave earlier, without me making the argument that any of those children died.

so i'm still not listening to the intent argument.

[cale]

In the past including the residential school system, absolutely it was. Uprooting people who legally lived in an area with the intent of destroying their culture is vastly different than detaining people who have no right to be there.