Trump Thread 2.0

[Melon]

Crime driven by poverty mostly.

Louisiana is deeply Republican and we have the same issues.

[E30 Wagen]

What bugs the hell out of me when I hear about grossly invasive airport searches is why that same level of searching and interrogation isn't used on mass shooting perpetrators who had been reported multiple times to the police prior.

[mbonder]

Both False Equivalencies

[TeXJ]

I have a friend that is a border patrol agent. He is on the ground at the border. I was thinking a wall was just a political move and just so they can say, see look what we built.

So I asked him, would a wall actually help. He said, yes. Without a doubt.

So that has changed my mind on a wall.

[naplesE30]

Of course it would freaking help. Its so damn simple and obvious it’s mind blowing how it has not been done. It won’t be the end all be all but it will def help. So would immediately sending caught illegal migrants at the border back home. I mean if you fucking worked you ass off for years to save to pay a coyote to smuggle you across and you were caught and sent home..... all that hard work and money wasted you don’t think it’s going to dissuade others from making the same trek. But neither side want to kill that golden calf by doing anything about it.

[decay]

Of course it would freaking help. Its so damn simple and obvious it’s mind blowing how it has not been done. It won’t be the end all be all but it will def help. So would immediately sending caught illegal migrants at the border back home. I mean if you fucking worked you ass off for years to save to pay a coyote to smuggle you across and you were caught and sent home..... all that hard work and money wasted you don’t think it’s going to dissuade others from making the same trek. But neither side want to kill that golden calf by doing anything about it.

counterpoint: we were responsible for a lot of the security infrastructure in western europe post-ww2. they learned from us, and built on it, and arguably have a better one than we have now, and it hasn't stopped mass migration.

what the fuck is drumpf's half-assed wall going to do in the face of forced migration that's only going to increase, because of both sociopolitical and environmental circumstances?

absolutely nothing.

the wall you're talking about is a waste of money, both because it'll be ineffective and because it fails to address the root cause.

[Melon]

I'm opposed to the wall for two main reason, mostly because of the cost.
All we hear about is the cost to build, but what about maintenance? What about long term costs? It's almost impossible to project those.

Simply, we have better things we should be spending China's money on.

Also, you can't patrol then entire perimeter, ladders, manlifts all exist.
Even the Great Wall of China didn't keep the Mongols out.

Do we need border security?
Certainly, but the influx of people coming over changes over the years, manpower should be able to adjust as needed, as opposed to a wall.

[Melon]

So would immediately sending caught illegal migrants at the border back home. I mean if you fucking worked you ass off for years to save to pay a coyote to smuggle you across and you were caught and sent home..... all that hard work and money wasted you don’t think it’s going to dissuade others from making the same trek.

This was what has been called "Catch and release" and has been heavily criticized under the Bush and Obama administrations.

Rightfully so, they just keep on coming in many instances. It's not a permanent solution.

[z31maniac]

counterpoint: we were responsible for a lot of the security infrastructure in western europe post-ww2. they learned from us, and built on it, and arguably have a better one than we have now, and it hasn't stopped mass migration.

what the fuck is drumpf's half-assed wall going to do in the face of forced migration that's only going to increase, because of both sociopolitical and environmental circumstances?

absolutely nothing.

the wall you're talking about is a waste of money, both because it'll be ineffective and because it fails to address the root cause.

You mean the same Europe that pays African countries, like Sudan, to send migrants back to their home countries?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/22/world/africa/migration-european-union-sudan.html

What has been the impact of walls in Israel and the amount of terror attacks since the walls were erected?

https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/oct/02/scott-walker/scott-walker-israel-says-its-wall-led-90-percent-r/

Please use sources instead of character attacks to refute these.

[Melon]

You mean the same Europe that pays African countries, like Sudan, to send migrants back to their home countries?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/22/world/africa/migration-european-union-sudan.html

Definitely a lesson to be learned here.

What has been the impact of walls in Israel and the amount of terror attacks since the walls were erected?
https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...-90-percent-r/

Not really apples to apples here.

[decay]

You mean the same Europe that pays African countries, like Sudan, to send migrants back to their home countries?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/22/world/africa/migration-european-union-sudan.html

What has been the impact of walls in Israel and the amount of terror attacks since the walls were erected?

https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/oct/02/scott-walker/scott-walker-israel-says-its-wall-led-90-percent-r/

Please use sources instead of character attacks to refute these.

calling the wall a half-assed effort is not a character attack, it's a criticism of the idea.

[z31maniac]

Not really apples to apples here.

Explain how? The walls in Israel were built to stop terrorists from coming to their country. For the most part, they have worked very well.

And even though there aren't terrorists coming from Mexico, building a big wall that is defended cuts down on the ability for illegals to be here.

Let's get past quips, and discuss it, how is the principle behind the walls not the same?

calling the wall a half-assed effort is not a character attack, it's a criticism of the idea.

I didn't say that, I asked you to refute the stories (that I provided sources for) without Ad Hominems (against me or anyone else). Because the points you tried to make are easily disproven with the smallest amount of research.

So I'll ask you again, please provide sources that refute my argument against yours.

[Melon]

Explain how? The walls in Israel were built to stop terrorists from coming to their country. For the most part, they have worked very well.

And even though there aren't terrorists coming from Mexico, building a big wall that is defended cuts down on the ability for illegals to be here.

Let's get past quips, and discuss it, how is the principle behind the walls not the same?

Not the same scope;

The Wall you describe is much smaller, and easier to patrol. A border wall across the southern border of the United States would have to be about (4) times longer. Stats show that it did stop suicide bombings, but that's not what we're up against here. Lastly, and this most importantly, that wall is built in an area with disputed territory, the Mexican border isn't contested, so there's no issue to dispute with a physical border.

That's why I say it's not apples to apples.
It's not the same type of location, nation:nation vs. disputed territory:disputed territory

These are migrants, not terrorists

The wall in the US would need to be much much longer.

In summary, it doesn't pass my cost benefit analysis.

No quips here man. Just my .02.
I'm always down for a discussion.

[decay]

I didn't say that, I asked you to refute the stories (that I provided sources for) without Ad Hominems (against me or anyone else). Because the points you tried to make are easily disproven with the smallest amount of research.

So I'll ask you again, please provide sources that refute my argument against yours.

well i didn't use ad hominems against you or anyone else in the post you responded to, so put some dramamine and valerian in your coffee and chill out, friend

the forced migration we're seeing around the world has multiple root causes, sometimes within each conflict area, and what you point out in the sudan is what i'm talking about- if this is the endgame they want, at least they're pushing the solution closer to the root cause, if not addressing it directly

to actually achieve the goal the trump crowd seems to want would require something like the iron curtain, from san diego to corpus christi, and that is the next worst thing we could spend our money on, right behind another war

i'm afraid i can't link to a source there, because the discussion of an actual secure and non-porous southern border is entirely fucking hypothetical

[Melon]

Ultimately that's one of my concerns on a personal level.

This appearing to the rest of the world as a "Berlin Wall" type of scenario.