Trump Thread 2.0

[MrBurgundy]

Your comment is Gross.

So, where exactly are you in LA?

We have peaceful protests about real injustice being exploited by criminals. I have vans of "thugs" in my neighborhood, white and black, they are on videotape, ransack and loot my tiny Target & the Autozone down my street -- these people were never protesting, they don't give a SHIT. Go hit the Bevmo and the CVS and even a shitty Thai restaurant by my girlfriend's house. I live in Mid-City Los Angeles. I live near La Brea and Venice. These assholes looting have ZERO to do with the very decent people here who are hurting and some of which who are protesting George Floyd, and everyone else's, murder. We have organized crime operations and just desperate idiot opportunists swooping in when the cops and everyone else's attention are pulled all different directions in this rambling city and so much shit is going on and they are exploiting the situation.

How would you know Black Lives Matter is a joke? How would you really know? Bullshit.

Why does that even matter lol? 8th and Grand for whatever that's worth..

I've said that's not the mindset of all, but it is unarguable that a lot of them are just as I described. Sorry to break it to you. That's based on what I hear being chanted, the signs I see and I see my friends posting on socials. I'm 28, a vast majority of my peers are voicing their thoughts and opinions on all of this, so I'm seeing a lot of what I just described in my previous comment.

BLM is literally asking for slavery reparations. Like, are you serious? They don't even have a structure to their organization.

They have the largest stage in the world right now and they wont even address the main statistic in what claims the most black lives. Which is black men.

In 2016 2870 black Americans were killed in homicides. 243 of those homicides were committed by white Americans and 2570 were committed by black Americans.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

Keep telling me the're not a joke, or even a real organization. Who even leads them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter#Guiding_principles

Instead of saying my comment is gross, what don't you challenge one of my points.

I'm all ears

give it to me.

[2mAn]

People killing people is bad, but the people who are sworn to "protect and serve" should not be murdering people. If the man is a criminal, lock his ass up and let the courts deal with him. Police dont get to be the judge jury and executioner, and this happens much more often to Black men, than White men. This is why people are mad. The looters are taking advantage of the anger and that changes the discussion to something other than the murder by police.

The worst part of this is that our President isnt doing anything to CALM people, only adding fuel to the fire. He's a fuckin joke of a President who's only good that has come to any of us is a result of it being good for him. He only cares about one person, himself. He doesnt even care about his own base, but they will support him to the death

[phillipj]

I've said that's not the mindset of all, but it is unarguable that a lot of them are just as I described. Sorry to break it to you. That's based on what I hear being chanted, the signs I see and I see my friends posting on socials. I'm 28, a vast majority of my peers are voicing their thoughts and opinions on all of this, so I'm seeing a lot of what I just described in my previous comment.

...

Instead of saying my comment is gross, what don't you challenge one of my points.

I think your comment is simply gross or disgusting because you dismiss systemic & institutionalized racism. You are also quick to dismiss a real organization with a real plight. And based on what? Highly curated 28 year old social feeds and internet searches? That's just so easy to do; these things have nothing to do with your history, your life experience, how you value life. And I won't be here to expel points on injustice and racism on an internet forum dedicated to an old bmw to try change your mind or your values, and don't pretend that's even possible or worthwhile - that's up to you.

[MrBurgundy]

If the man is a criminal, lock his ass up and let the courts deal with him. Police dont get to be the judge jury and executioner, and this happens much more often to Black men, than White men. This is why people are mad.

Where's your data to show that is true?

Here's data showing that the exact opposite is happening

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Come on guys, are you looking this up or just echoing what's being said.

[MrBurgundy]

I think your comment is simply gross or disgusting because you dismiss systemic & institutionalized racism. You are also quick to dismiss a real organization with a real plight. And based on what? Highly curated 28 year old social feeds and internet searches? That's just so easy to do; these things have nothing to do with your history, your life experience, how you value life. And I won't be here to expel points on injustice and racism on an internet forum dedicated to an old bmw to try change your mind or your values, and don't pretend that's even possible or worthwhile - that's up to you.

You just cannot challenge any of my points with anything real, so you just keep dismissing real evidence, whether it be anecdotal, an observational, statistics and what we're seeing on TV.

I'm sorry, bud, but it's true, there are a lot of people protesting who are justifying, dismissing or saying it's just part of the movement. Like I said before, and I'll say it again -- probably going to have to say it another time too, but I'm not saying there is a total absence of peaceful protesters, but it has been hijacked, unfortunately.

You cannot dismiss something that isn't real. Come on, give me an example of something blatantly systemically racist. Give it to me, still listening.

I'm a Muslim/Syrian arab boy living in a post 911 world, so don't sit there and act like you know I haven't been on the receiving end of that. Nice try, totally differed all of my points because you the person I described in my first comment.

It's so easy to see through this BS, but peoples egos are too large to challenge something they've come to be so passionate about and can't risk looking at themselves in the mirror and saying they've been fooled.

There are injustices, police can be brutal and the men who committed these crimes should be charged for the crimes they committed.

It is not a race thing tho.. Don't be fooled.

[phillipj]

Where's your data to show that is true?

Here's data showing that the exact opposite is happening

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

Come on guys, are you looking this up or just echoing what's being said.

Just based on the things you've come out with here recently, you're showing a great lack of depth. You can mock me for not wanting to engage, but you don't necessarily encourage anyone to want to waste their valuable time. For example, above you're linking to some stat that you've looked up that is supposedly showing us "Number of people shot to death by the police in the United States by race". Ok, we see some numbers. Tell us why your stat, your link there specifically proves your point?

It it because the "white" number is higher than the "black" number? You're not looking at per capita statistics here. Do you know what that means? Let's say there are roughly 200 Million "White" people in the US, and 40 Million "Black" in 2019. If you did a deeper dive you might realize your statistic there, whether it is reliable or not, is telling us a "Black" person is shot by the police 3x more often than a "White" Person.

Also: Why exactly were these people shot? What was the circumstance? What was the crime of let's say one person who is one race versus the other? This kind of information is supremely critical to this whole conversation. So, let's be specific: George Floyd was suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill. He was arrested. He didn't resist the cops. Then he got his neck kneeled on for 8 minutes on the curb and choked to death and died. Do we have any stats for white guys suspected of using a counterfeit 20 to compare that to?

Third, who is to say we can trust that statistic? Police departments typically under report and mis report, for a whole host of reasons.

Further, instead of citing vague statistics as a way to completely invalidate such amazingly heavy and complex issues such as police brutality and systemic racism in policing or criminal justice, look up and read some actual in-depth investigations by reliable sources into specific events in specific locations. Here's a good one, for example: The US Department of Justice’s 163-page report into the Baltimore police. To use your term, that is "real evidence," conducted over a year's time, quite unlike what you are citing. Here's a summary for you.

[MrBurgundy]

Just based on the things you've come out with here recently, you're showing a great lack of depth. You can mock me for not wanting to engage, but you don't necessarily encourage anyone to want to waste their valuable time. For example, above you're linking to some stat that you've looked up that is supposedly showing us "Number of people shot to death by the police in the United States by race". Ok, we see some numbers. Tell us why your stat, your link there specifically proves your point?

It it because the "white" number is higher than the "black" number? You're not looking at per capita statistics here. Do you know what that means? Let's say there are roughly 200 Million "White" people in the US, and 40 Million "Black" in 2019. If you did a deeper dive you might realize your statistic there, whether it is reliable or not, is telling us a "Black" person is shot by the police 3x more often than a "White" Person.

Also: Why exactly were these people shot? What was the circumstance? What was the crime of let's say one person who is one race versus the other? This kind of information is supremely critical to this whole conversation. So, let's be specific: George Floyd was suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill. He was arrested. He didn't resist the cops. Then he got his neck kneeled on for 8 minutes on the curb and choked to death and died. Do we have any stats for white guys suspected of using a counterfeit 20 to compare that to?

Third, who is to say we can trust that statistic? Police departments typically under report and mis report, for a whole host of reasons.

Further, instead of citing vague statistics as a way to completely invalidate such amazingly heavy and complex issues such as police brutality and systemic racism in policing or criminal justice, look up and read some actual in-depth investigations by reliable sources into specific events in specific locations. Here's a good one, for example: The US Department of Justice’s 163-page report into the Baltimore police. To use your term, that is "real evidence," conducted over a year's time, quite unlike what you are citing. Here's a summary for you.

LOL willful ignorance.

One comment suggested that "black men are being killed more than white men by police" The stat I posted doesn't support that and that is a legitimate source. Try again.

If you want to argue about disproportion, then you should also factor in that 13% of the population (black americans) account for over 50% of violent crimes. You really cannot connect these dots?

They are subjecting themselves to police for by committing over half of violent crimes. And that 13% is all of our african american population, but we know that young black men are committing these violent crimes. So, if you were take the population of young black men out of the entire us population, you're going to be in the teens or single digits which accounts for over half of all violent crimes in the US. That answers your second and third points.

Do you even read what I post? I've said those cops are in the wrong, but tell me how you know it was even racially charged? Where is any sliver of evidence that suggests that specific encounter was racially charged?

LOL how can we trust that statistic? So what is the foundation of your reasoning or making sense of anything, your feelings?

There is no getting to you

Are you white BTW? That group of people seem to care the most like you, but turn a cold shoulder to anyone who presents facts. Have you felt the burden of this systemically oppressive system? If you are a person of color and have, i'm truly sorry, maybe I've really just been misinformed and haven't felt the burden of the racsit oppressive system because it doesn't target arab bois like myself.

This is why I stay out of this sub forum.

You've literally never presented a counter point with any substance.

I'll read that 163 page report when you can accept stats that counter you view points. I literally cannot believe you say, "why should I believe that stat" and then post whatever you want and expect me to just take it. LOL

I've had this conversation 100 times and it always goes like this. I'm never a dick about it, but always gets thrown in my face because people can't challenge themselves.

guuuuuuuuud bye

[2mAn]

Where's your data to show that is true?

Here's data showing that the exact opposite is happening

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Come on guys, are you looking this up or just echoing what's being said.

Data coming soon but I know there is data that shows that while the NUMBER of whites killed by Cops is higher, the PERCENTAGE of Blacks killed by Cops is higher.

Let me ask you simple Yes/No question: In this current case with George Floyd was that justified? Known Racist Cop is killing him, while being filmed, ignoring his plea for help... are we supposed to throw our hands up and say, well, he was a criminal so thats ok?...

[MrBurgundy]

There are injustices, police can be brutal and the men who committed these crimes should be charged for the crimes they committed.

No not at all, i've already said that ALL of them should be charged for the crimes they committed. Also, as mentioned above, black Americans disproportionately commit crimes, which is why that statistic is high for their population per capita. That's the reason, nothing else.

It's a call and response, not a hunt.

To simplify everything I said, the issue at hand is policing not police against blacks.

Police are brutal and have been militarized, which in itself is a problem for everyone, not only our black population.

The problem now is they've upped the charge to 2nd degree murder, which by definition in that state requires intent to kill for it to fall under that degree, where third degree is,

According to state statutes, a person can be charged with third-degree murder “by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind,” without regard for life and without intent to kill.

Which is more of what happened, or what's provable. Especially with conflicting autopsies. Legal specuators are saying theres a chance the DA overcharged the criminals and when you overcharge, that's when you get acquittals. Also, to aid and abet requires intent hence the up charge to 2nd degree.

So we may see this fall apart in the courts, then people will take to the streets again and with signs saying that our justice system needs reform and of course it's racist and it has failed us, but in reality it was a DA that could do their job.

People are acting like the degree of murder is a metric as to how bad they think it is rather than following the defined outlines that separate 3rd 2nd and 1st degree murder.

[2mAn]

It's a call and response, not a hunt.

To simplify everything I said, the issue at hand is policing not police against blacks.

Lots of good points, especially about the charges. I saw a statistic that said there was 7000+ killings at the hands of police, with just under 100 that had charges filed and less than half being found guilty... The charge means little, but it’s better than nothing.

That first part is a key problem. How quickly are people calling the cops on Blacks, plenty of examples of that. And once the cops are called they demand compliance but when people feel they’re being treated unfairly things escalate. Then the cops don’t de-escalate, they escalate it more and since they’re in the position of power things get out of hand. Then people get killed over nonsense, this has happened repeatedly and when you don’t feel things are getting any better , people protest ...

I said I’m coming back with facts and I have several stats, but these relate to what I was talking about. There’s another one I have about the lack of training about de-escalation but it’s not uploading and I hope we can both agree that they have a problem with that

[phillipj]

LOL willful ignorance.

One comment suggested that "black men are being killed more than white men by police" The stat I posted doesn't support that and that is a legitimate source. Try again.

If you want to argue about disproportion, then you should also factor in that 13% of the population (black americans) account for over 50% of violent crimes. You really cannot connect these dots?

They are subjecting themselves to police for by committing over half of violent crimes. And that 13% is all of our african american population, but we know that young black men are committing these violent crimes. So, if you were take the population of young black men out of the entire us population, you're going to be in the teens or single digits which accounts for over half of all violent crimes in the US. That answers your second and third points.

Do you even read what I post? I've said those cops are in the wrong, but tell me how you know it was even racially charged? Where is any sliver of evidence that suggests that specific encounter was racially charged?

LOL how can we trust that statistic? So what is the foundation of your reasoning or making sense of anything, your feelings?

There is no getting to you

Are you white BTW? That group of people seem to care the most like you, but turn a cold shoulder to anyone who presents facts. Have you felt the burden of this systemically oppressive system? If you are a person of color and have, i'm truly sorry, maybe I've really just been misinformed and haven't felt the burden of the racsit oppressive system because it doesn't target arab bois like myself.

This is why I stay out of this sub forum.

You've literally never presented a counter point with any substance.

I'll read that 163 page report when you can accept stats that counter you view points. I literally cannot believe you say, "why should I believe that stat" and then post whatever you want and expect me to just take it. LOL

I've had this conversation 100 times and it always goes like this. I'm never a dick about it, but always gets thrown in my face because people can't challenge themselves.

guuuuuuuuud bye

So, just let me get this straight-- you have said above (and please correct us if I am wrong):

1. Systematic racism does not exist, there are only individual instances of racism, and

2. there is no heightened police brutality toward black people, and

3. the only reason it looks that way is because blacks commit more crimes.

You are also playing devil's advocate (why?) for the cop who killed George Floyd -- you argue: why say color mattered in how that played out, no one can prove that.

---

Your first response on this topic was quoting me and saying vaguely that the protests are not about peace. My post, the one you quoted, specifically talked about how the President gassed 100% peaceful protestors in front of the White House. Which is true. "Peaceful" protestors can assemble and chant and yell and hold signs. They are doing so because they are angry. They have every right to be and they weren't hurting anyone or destroying anything. But then you go and confuse that with other people looting or vandalizing in other parts of the country.

Then you start to compare these massive & diverse racial injustice protests in streets all over the world to the relatively few white people who came out last month because they couldn't get their hair cut? Or nails done? Because of scientific best practices during a pandemic limited their "freedom." The nature of the protests and the fallout from them do not make for accurate comparison. Context and Details matter. A lot. Imagine if a bunch of black guys open-carrying weapons made their way into State Capitols like certain groups of people did a month ago.

So, was "Stop and Frisk" under Giuliani and Bloomberg in New York City "Systemic Racism"? Or just a convenient coincidence that was going on.

I linked you to that Justice Department Report on the Baltimore Police Department above, and a summary which talks in detail about Systemic Racism with examples. There's dozens of other validated investigations like that. And it's really not my job to go find them for you.

Why are the arrest rates and sentences for Blacks caught with Cocaine, or Crack (or even marijuana) markedly different from Whites caught with Cocaine, etc.? Go research that one for yourself. Is that Systematic Racism? Or is it just bad luck?

How about check out these "stats" and report by the United States Sentencing Commission and tell us what you think. Is that "counterpoint with substance" enough?

[LowR3V'in]

daym is there a jury trial going on in here?

[MrBurgundy]

So, just let me get this straight-- you have said above (and please correct us if I am wrong):

1. Systematic racism does not exist, there are only individual instances of racism, and

2. there is no heightened police brutality toward black people, and

3. the only reason it looks that way is because blacks commit more crimes.

You are also playing devil's advocate (why?) for the cop who killed George Floyd -- you argue: why say color mattered in how that played out, no one can prove that.

---

Your first response on this topic was quoting me and saying vaguely that the protests are not about peace. My post, the one you quoted, specifically talked about how the President gassed 100% peaceful protestors in front of the White House. Which is true. "Peaceful" protestors can assemble and chant and yell and hold signs. They are doing so because they are angry. They have every right to be and they weren't hurting anyone or destroying anything. But then you go and confuse that with other people looting or vandalizing in other parts of the country.

Then you start to compare these massive & diverse racial injustice protests in streets all over the world to the relatively few white people who came out last month because they couldn't get their hair cut? Or nails done? Because of scientific best practices during a pandemic limited their "freedom." The nature of the protests and the fallout from them do not make for accurate comparison. Context and Details matter. A lot. Imagine if a bunch of black guys open-carrying weapons made their way into State Capitols like certain groups of people did a month ago.

So, was "Stop and Frisk" under Giuliani and Bloomberg in New York City "Systemic Racism"? Or just a convenient coincidence that was going on.

I linked you to that Justice Department Report on the Baltimore Police Department above, and a summary which talks in detail about Systemic Racism with examples. There's dozens of other validated investigations like that. And it's really not my job to go find them for you.

Why are the arrest rates and sentences for Blacks caught with Cocaine, or Crack (or even marijuana) markedly different from Whites caught with Cocaine, etc.? Go research that one for yourself. Is that Systematic Racism? Or is it just bad luck?

How about check out these "stats" and report by the United States Sentencing Commission and tell us what you think. Is that "counterpoint with substance" enough?

I'm playing devils advocate, because you can see how easily and fast the narrative falls apart. There is nothing concrete to show that that specific encounter was racially fueled. There just isn't. If there was, you simply would have just told me.

God damn, my guy, I've already said, idk, three times now that there are peaceful protests. Holy shit. You guys must really feel like all those cops that get thrown under the bus because there are a few bad ones... Or like gun owners who get thrown under the bus because there are bad guys out there. (OH SHIIIT LOGIC IS FLIPPED) You're telling me that like I think that's okay. Still, I stand by my statement.

Now they're asking to abolish/defund the police. What a JOKE. Are you kidding me? Like are you fucking kidding me?

I think you mentioned to me that I show a lack of depth, but then you come and say that "a few" people were protesting, because they couldn't get their "nails done" and they're all white people really shows who actually lacks depth. Do you really need someone to tell you that it wasn't all white people and it was more than just a "few?" If you can't see that they were protesting government overreach, which resulted in the gov shutting down businesses, then you're just ignorant. You're probably a guy who doesn't own their own business and gets to work from home or got furloughed and is collecting a nice unemployment check. Just a guess, correct me if I'm wrong. That seems to be the demographic of people who are down to be indefinitely shut down.

Okay, how long has stop and frisk been over now? The racist "system" already ended that. Running out of things to bring up as i effortlessly debunk all of it? I hope I'm not wasting your valuable time LOL

One main factory that accounts for the majority of sentencing disparity is because of repeat offenses, which result in longer sentencing. Also, you cannot simply put those two numbers side by side without looking into the specific details of each case. There is always a reason. There always is. People are just afraid to find out that there is. I've read conflicting information, but we all know that if you're a repeat offender, you get a longer sentence. If a judge sees that you haven't changed, why wouldn't they give you a longer sentence.

And back to BLM being a joke; don't you think it's so funny that they don't even mention what you just mentioned? If sentencing disparity existed because our court systems are out to keep black people in jail, why isn't BLM even talking about that?

Here's a link that explains how out black communities find their men in the jail system more often, resulting in a long history, which in turn does result in harsher sentencing.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/03/the-growing-racial-disparity-in-prison-time

Criminal history also plays an important role, said William Sabol, a professor at Georgia State University who authored the report. During the decades of rising incarceration in the United States, a lot of people—especially black men—were arrested and pulled into the criminal justice system, leaving them with long criminal histories, Sabol said. Those records are often considered at sentencing and may contribute to today’s disparity in time spent in prison.

Prosecutors rely heavily on someone’s prior criminal history when they are deciding what to charge and what sentence to recommend, said Daniel Nagin, a criminology professor at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College of Information Systems and Public Policy. In Pennsylvania, for example, prosecutors determine what sentences to recommend by considering the severity of the crime and the defendant’s past arrest history. A longer criminal history can lead to a longer sentence.

Honestly, yeah, this was way better than any of your other responses. nice.

From everything I've pointed out, I think I have solved racism! I'm going to go to the CEO of racism's house and tell him how I can stop him!

Stop breaking the law. har har har

But that's not the point, since you've steered this whole conversation away from the real point, which is systemic police brutality against black people, which does not exist.

And I'll say this again, just cuz i know I'm going to have to make this point again. All those cops should go to jail

[phillipj]

1. You began by quoting my post about the subject at hand: the President's military threat, the staged photo op and the gassing of peaceful protestors and took it to a whole different place to avoid that subject. It's the Trump thread, by the way. Who here would like to see your own "Black Lives Matter is a Joke" and "Systemic Racial Injustice and Police Brutality doesn't exist" thread? You hijacked here with (what is in my opinion) utter nonsense.

2. My exact words "Relatively Few" is much different than "Few"; just do a serious comparison of the scale & number of each. Those protests were also much more than relatively white. You first brought up comparing the nature of these protests (which I do find ridiculous), so if you want to go there let's be accurate. Details matter -- that's "depth." If you cherry pick statistics and details when they suit you, and discard what doesn't, and use non-sequiturs often, that's a lack of depth.

3. The idea of defunding the Police isn't a bad one. It's being talked about as taking responsibilities away from the police that they don't want anyways and often aren't qualified for or have a background with. A policeman doesn't need to be a dog catcher or a social worker, for example. And the police force doesn't need to have MRAPS and humvees. Are our local Police force our guardians? Or are they Warriors?

4. Anyone can certainly agree that criminal history will play into sentencing, and that would definitely skew those demographic numbers. I wholeheartedly agree with you and of course the Marshall Project excerpt. However with systemic racism, if a certain demographic person gets picked up initially for what might be let go or overlooked for someone else, we're going to start seeing a snowball effect. That will play into and eventually exacerbate racial disparity sentencing realities.

But that's not the point, since you've steered this whole conversation away from the real point, which is systemic police brutality against black people, which does not exist.

You can make all these assumptions about me, and we can go in circles with whatever spun statistics you want, but, really, it's super simple: if I see something like this (above) that you said at the beginning and are repeating now, it's going to bother me enough to respond. It would certainly bother my close black friends even more. Because it's ignorant. Perhaps go sit down and have a conversation in real life, not behind a screen on the internet, with some Black guys here in LA and tell them your theories, and see where the conversation goes? I'd like to hear about it. Otherwise, we are going nowhere fast.

I was living amongst the Laquan McDonald disaster in Chicago not that long ago. Systemic racism, police brutality, cover-ups - it all very much exists. Meanwhile, you can have a white supremacist go into a Kroger or a Church or wherever and shoot up a bunch of people and the Police will subdue and arrest them and now they are very much alive and well in handcuffs in court. These are seriously awful and complex issues and it is impossible to do them due diligence here, however, I assure you, racist police brutality and systemic racism very much exists today in America. The few things occasionally, randomly caught on film are only the tip of the iceberg.

[LowR3V'in]

i'm all for de funding the police so when i beat my wife nobody gunna show up